Season 2: Ep.06 - Graceful Rulebreaking with Carmelia Ray

(00:28)

Kirsten: Hello, and welcome back to Graceful Rulebreakers. I'm your host Kirsten Lee Hill, and I am super excited about today's guest. Her name is Carmelia Ray and she is a celebrity matchmaker, a TV host, a producer, a relationship expert, social media savant. She has her own app, a matchmaking school and is just an all around incredible human. Carmelia helps successful entrepreneurs to connect with their life partner, to create long term love and legacy, and she also gives really incredible advice on business development and luxury branding. You really do it all, Carmelia, it's amazing.

(01:07)

Carmelia: You know what? I'm a matchmaker always, but I am an entrepreneur at heart. So, I love all the things. I love creating content, I love business development. I mean, I've never considered myself an influencer, but as soon as you, like, hit over 10,000 on Instagram, you know, you become a little micro influencer, which I'll take that. It took me so long to get to 10,000 followers. I'm like, I need 10,000 followers, because you know, I think sometimes when you are a brand, those little vanity metrics, people like, look at that, right? But for me, aside from followers, it's really more about, like, impact and really trying to help connect the dots for people, and build that confidence. Because as you know, getting in the dating space can knock you down. Um, you know, getting over a relationship, starting over, not sure, not knowing where to go, it's all really stressful. And so, if I can do my best to try to make that process a little less confusing, for one through the coaching conversations, I think a lot of the clients appreciate, oh, okay, great, I'm not crazy, they're crazy. And sometimes, sometimes it's them, right? And I just, I'm able to give them that mirror or share their perspective and be like, so I don't think I would do that again, If I were you, you know, we do things. Yeah. We all can use a little bit of support. I mean, that's why I hired a fitness coach and now my girlfriend's like, do you want to do this cleanse with like eight of us? And I'm like, I need to do that cleanse every day of my life, sure. You know, and I need somebody to keep me accountable to actually do it. So, we all need, we all have areas that we struggle in.

(03:01)

Kirsten: Yeah. I love that though. You're totally my fitness inspiration. Because every day I'm like, she's doing it again.

Carmelia: I haven't been on it. I haven't been on it recently, but there was a period where I really was… a good thing is, I'm surprisingly maintaining what I lost. Um, and I think it's just, I'm gonna say, is it the stress or that I'm on Clubhouse that I don't eat, right? Like what is it? I'm so glad you're on Clubhouse too. I don't know if we're going to talk about that.

Kirsten: Oh, I'd love to talk because it's so new, like, it's a new thing, but I agree, I think it's so addictive. The other night, I literally, I fell asleep on Clubhouse. I've been on it so long that I fall asleep and I woke up and I was like, oh my God.

Carmelia: If you didn't fall asleep on Clubhouse, I'd say you're lying. Like everybody's falling asleep on Clubhouse.

(03:56)

Kirsten: Great, well, I would love first for you to talk a little bit about your journey because I feel like you do so many things, and to your point, like, you're an entrepreneur at heart and I'd love to know for other people who are like, just getting started as an entrepreneur. Like, how did you end up where you are now?

(04:15)

Carmelia: Well, that journey goes back 28 years, um, Kirsten and I applied for a job at a dating service - it's called Together Dating. They're not around anymore, and when I say dating service, it really wasn't…like, it was single people, it's kind of like matchmaking, but it felt more like a number, like, back then, it's like people, just boy, girl, put them together. I didn't feel like there was a lot of, like, consideration then in terms of the sophistication that we have now and the personality traits tests we have now, like we've learned so much about relationships that putting a match together, isn't as simple. Like, so I started as a telemarketer in 1992. I was part-time. My job was to call people who filled out a form from the mail. This is back in the day before cell phones existed. Like, literally people would have the envelope, they fill out this profile, uh, in the mail, it came to our office, our mail truck, like, just to give you context, this is like, I think it wasn't a rotary, but it was a dial phone. And this was before like that plug-in phone internet, Okay. Big night. I don't think you were born in the nine… were you born in the nineties?

Kirsten: I was. I was little, I was 87, baby.

(05:33)

Carmelia: You were little, okay. So anyway, this is back when people didn't have social media, match.com came out in 95 and like Facebook was much later, but we didn't have the internet then. So, people struggled to meet at bars, clubs, church. And my job was booking appointments in the call center for people who filled out this form for this dating service. So, I got to talk to them about what worked, what didn't work. So, I realized I'm really good at this. Like, connecting with people, I'm a naturally curious person. So, I think there's a skillset, especially if you're like, I was in, considered sales, but as a great salesperson, it's not selling when you can, um, show somebody an opportunity or, um, a possibility that's good for them, right? Um, you can sell somebody into something that's not good for them, right? Because that's manipulation, right? So, some people do get conned into stuff. But if I believe that by taking this action, and I booked appointments for people to come and meet with a matchmaker or relationship consultant, and then they'd explain how it works. And then they'd become a member and then member and then the membership service team would match them. So, I was really good at that. I never left. My part-time position became full-time. My full-time position became a manager. My management position became, you know, a troubleshooter. So, I was really good at fixing problems on a corporate level, if it was a 172 franchise office and each office had their own goals, right? Um, and if an office wasn't doing well, it always came back to looking at that system. What are people promising? What are they saying? What's not working. And so I was like the fixer, I would go into centers and go, okay, what's going on here?

(07:23)

Carmelia: Why are people not, you know, um, looking at this? What are people afraid of? And I think there's a lot of fear around the unknown, and there's also, it's also important to show people possibilities that they don't know. I mean, at the same time when people are spending and investing, I'll say investing money and they can't take their boyfriend home, or they can't take their girlfriend home, like right in that moment, it is a serious consideration, right? Because it's about opportunities, and as a matchmaker, you can't, like… you can guarantee introductions, but you can't guarantee that they're going to meet 'the one.' So, part of that is obviously the network, like, Kirsten, I don't know if you've ever done, like, where you've been in a coaching situation or even in a paid community, or in a mastermind group. When you join mastermind groups and you join private clubs or private organizations, frankly, you pay into that, and you pay into that because you're going to learn something you're going to meet people, and so I invest a lot into being involved in these private circles, because that's where you're going to meet other people at the level… is you got to go to where they go, you've got to eat where they eat, you have to shop where they shop. Um, and that's for anybody that's listening, right? If you want to meet the kind of person in your life, then you gotta get out of the house or get on the internet, and do what you gotta do to make those possibilities happen, because they're not knocking on your door, I'm sorry, they're not knocking on your door. I mean, we want them to but the cute FedEx guy, maybe the Amazon guy delivering you presents, but, or a woman or woman, it could be men or women.

(09:09)

Kirsten: Did you pick where to get involved? Because I've noticed this about you, I mean, you do have an extensive network and you always collaborate with the coolest people. What is your approach to, like, bringing that into your life? Because I think even for me, that's something that I get anxiety about, right? And like, oh my gosh, like, is this person going to want it? Like, I don't know if I should ask them.

(09:30)

Carmelia: Um, you know, I think it's that… I'm Aries. I don't know, I mean, I'm not astrological, but if you know the Aries sign, like, we are bold, we're not afraid, I'm not shy, I have never been a shy person. And I think being raised the way I was with my parents, I'm Filipino Canadian. I'm an immigrant. My parents were both eldest in their family. They both worked super hard. They both always wanted me to have the best grades. And so for me, I do have the attitude that anything is possible and that it can't be possible unless you ask the right questions and you meet the right people. So for myself, it's always about adding value and contributing, and asking questions. And by the way, when, um, when people are mentors or could mentor you, there are people that want to help, right? Like, I get lit up when you ask me a question, like I'm happy that I'm here because I get to be in my, um, power and share what I've learned, and you give me that opportunity to do that. And I hope that someone's listening and they can get inspired or that they come up with an idea. So, there's always that people are free to ask, but there are people that love being generous and thrive on the opportunity to support or help or make an impact. And that's what, um, a successful person who has a lot of resources can do. To me, somebody who has a lot of resources means that they're in a position to help more people, right? Like, if you want to make a billion dollars, you help a billion people, as they say, right? So, my goal is to help as many millions of singles as possible and without the consideration of money, because I believe that karma is going to come into play, and a lot of things can't be quantified and you can't really put a price on it, but anytime there is an exchange of service, there's always an energy exchange, right? And, and so, yeah, I dunno if I rambled off a little bit over there, but that's how I get into those circles is just, I don't look at what can I get? It's more of, you know, what can I give and how can I make a difference here?

(11:45)

Carmelia: I believe that you can give freely without expectation. So to that point, you know, you want to be sure that you are in a reciprocal situation. Um, anybody that's going to accept things from you without a thank you, I mean, even if it's as much as… thank you, if you give and there's no gratitude and you give, and there's no consideration, that's a poor exchange, right? And, so you want to make sure that even in your relationships, that you're monitoring that exchange, is it a fair exchange? Are you giving or are you taking? Are you looking at somebody for what they can give to you? Or are you looking at that situation for what you can do for each other? You know, and that's something that a lot of times when people are on dates, they make it about them. Well, what's he going to say to me, what's he going to ask me what she can ask me, instead of making it about the person in front of you? Anytime you can take the focus off what you're getting and really pour into the other person, I'm going to say that you'll have a better experience because you drop those expectations and you can walk away from that date saying, I was a good human, I did a great job, I made that person feel good. They weren't a good person, but I can sleep at night. So, think of that when you're on a bad date.

Kirsten: I love that.

Carmelia: I don't think that way all the time.

Kirsten: I honestly used to think of dating so much as I'm like, this person wants to spend time with me and I'd really liked dinner. So like we're trading, trading on this.

Carmelia: Fair trade. Come on. I'm hungry. You want company.

Kirsten: Yeah. So it's funny, how I survived grad school.

Carmelia: There's always an exchange.

(13:40)

Kirsten: I wonder particularly thinking about the space of like entrepreneurs dating, because especially, so I've been in a lot of, like, the Clubhouse, I love the like single and ready to mingle rooms. And they're just so fun.

Carmelia: You shoot your shot in those rooms. Like, are you?

Kirsten: So shy, I'm terrible.

Carmelia: You know, that I'm like a kid in a candy store. And I look at hundreds of people and I'm like sliding into everybody's …like, oh, this person, oh, I'm sliding into everybody's.

(14:08)

Kirsten: Oh my gosh. I do, every time. I'm like, well, I must not see her in here because I know she'd be texting me, like, why are you so quiet? I'm like, I'm just sitting in there.… it's so interesting.

Carmelia: Oh I see you. But I also don't want to, you know, listen, I got to tell you, Kristen, get on stages no matter what, think of any question, because you have a podcast and it's not even from a personal point of view, but yes, eyes are on you. I like your picture by the way. I do like your picture.

Kirsten: Oh, thank you. I changed it after one of sessions

Carmelia: Red, red, red, red color, color, color, you know, the glass of wine, like in the middle, like you got to get cut in that. Oh, look at like, oh, you started getting a picture of me. I don't even know it. You know, that kind of candid moment, right? Um, or one with your dog, because somehow pictures with dogs, like it'll attract other dog lovers. Do you travel? Is your dog with you too? Like I know you moved. Okay.

Kirsten: Yeah, he is. Yeah. He's sitting like right next to me

(15:10)

Carmelia: And I love that you're in your pajamas right now, and I'm dressed in a red dress with my makeup on because I thought she's recording me. And I'm so angry at myself.

Kirsten: I feel like we can take a selfie at the end and then I can share that and you'll look all glamorous.

Carmelia: You don't have to.

Kirsten: I put on my fancy pajamas for you though. These were like….

Carmelia: Are they silk? What are they, they look soft.

Kirsten: You know, those, have you seen the ads? The Eber J pajamas that all the celebrities wearing…

Carmelia: I don't know, but they're married. Guys, she's got her cute PJ's on. I would totally do it. That's a zoomed. I wouldn't, I would not wear black though. I would be wearing like pink or fuschia

(15:53)

Kirsten: I'd love for you to share a bit more about your experience on Clubhouse and the collaboration, because Clubhouse is brand new. People are like still scrambling for it, I don't know, I see people scrambling for invites all the time.

(16:09)

Carmelia: I feel I'm so late to the party, Clubhouse opened in, like, March or May of 2020. And I, you know, I've amassed a lot of followers in a short time, like since January 4th, but there've been people out of Clubhouse since like October, November. So, that's a lot can happen in like several months, right? So, I mean, Clubhouse is just an incredible platform to connect, where you can lead conversations that you want to have, whether you're an expert or not. You can just open up rooms like a live podcast and pose the question like I did today. So, you want to be a matchmaker. What does it take? It's a Q and A, and people came into the room and other matchmakers walked in the hallway. This is the virtual hallway popped in the room and said, oh, who are these other matchmakers? And they're like, oh my God, there's all these matchmakers. I want to join the conversation. And then you get all the singles that are like, what are these matchmakers talking about, right?

(17:09)

Carmelia: And then I'll do another room, which how to build a luxury brand. And actually tomorrow at two o'clock I'm doing a room on cryptocurrency because as a moderator, I know don't ask me why, because I don't really, I'm going to start investing in crypto. But a friend of mine was like, you're such a great moderator, like, of these rooms, can you help me moderate this crypto room? I said, sure. I'll like, really, there's a bit of a protocol there, but I'm, as you know, I'm not afraid to open my mouth and I'm not afraid to take the leap. I don't have to know anything about crypto. I just have to be great at asking questions. And that I'm an expert in, I can interrogate the best people in the world.

(17:51)

Kirsten: I love that. And it does, it does seem like it's such a great tool to collaborate with other people. And that's something that I really like about you and your work as well, because I'm saying I'm not competitive when people, whatever, like, can you list your competitors? I'm like, no, like I just don't think of anybody on that, because it's so like lack, you know what I mean? I'm like, there's plenty to go around, right?

(18:14)

Carmelia: I have had, um, not negative… I've been surprised by feedback I've gotten from clients or even people who've come to me second, and they might have gone to someone else first. And the conversation was, oh, well so-and-so said you do your business this way. Or so-and-so said you did this, and what they said was inaccurate. Um, and so those are the things that I think, Hmm, there are still other people that will be threatened by you. There are still people that are going to say things that aren't true, or they're going to do whatever they're going to do to try to win that business, and to maybe discredit someone else. But I really think the way you handle yourself and how you acquire that business is always going to come back. And if, when you, when you deceive someone and you're not honest, somehow karma has a way of, like, reminding you, we heard you, you know, like you said this and it's going to come back. So, that's why I'm not concerned about that. All I can do… and I don't, I'm not going to sit here and convince somebody to work with me. I don't want to do that. It's like, that's, those are the worst relationships you have anyway, because the person didn't feel good about that process. It's always just better when you can part as friends and say, you know what? It was great to spend at the time and, you know, best of luck and just part as friends.

(19:41)

Kirsten: Yeah, I love that. Can you tell us a little bit more about the other ventures you have? So like, production studio, tell us about all the things.

(19:55)

Carmelia: Um, so I am actively working with a production company. I will not name the company, but I'm working with a production company on several TV, reality TV programs that are being pitched to various networks. Uh, there's about two or three shows right now with me as the host. So, that's one thing I'm excited about. I recently, um, shot with ice T he has a new show called the Mediator coming out. It was so fun, and I'm one of the experts that helps him, like, there's a conflict between two people, its relationship based and I'm one of the expert panels. He's kind of like Judge Judy, it's so fun. The show is called the Mediator. So, he prefers to be, in a couple of other experts to say, all right, guys, what do you think? And that'll come out really soon, I just did that. Um, I am a partner, um, the chief matchmaker for a matchmaking app called Senseo it's, C E N S I O it's available on apple, uh, iOS that's, uh, for right now it's like Clubhouse. We don't have Android yet. And if people download it and use my name Carmelia, actually, or Clubhouse Carmelia or Clubhouse as a promo code, they're going to get three months free, um, of unlimited access on the Senseo app, um, in Toronto, for those who are listening, um, and are based in Toronto, I just launched a full service production and live stream studio, because as you know, Kirsten, everything is pretty much video-based including, uh, you know, TikTok and Instagram and reels and social media is really pushing and preferring video content, which is why I thought it's really smart to, you know, play on that wave.

(21:47)

Carmelia: And also for my clients, because they're dating on video, I thought what a great way to kind of offers space for clients to like video themselves, right? And I can coach them and they can have a professional video, and zoom from the office instead of their like corner at home. So, that's something. Um, and then I'm also an expert on, uh, on a relationship app called clarity and the list goes on and on, I'm most excited about my matchmaking school. So, for people who have thought I need extra income, or I want to help people, or they think, you know, they want to transfer their recruitment skills or real estate skills or health skills to help people find love, you can go to matchmaking academy.com. And I just launched a digital academy to certify matchmakers with, uh, my partner Hunt Effleurage, he's an award-winning dating coach, combined we have over 40 years of experience and we are here to help, uh, create more matchmakers, more cupids on earth, to help make more matches. And so that's my wrap up. I'm sure there's more, but that's what I want to talk about.

Kirsten: What's your secret to doing so, so many things?

(22:58)

Carmelia: You know, no sleep, um, you know, part of that's just because so many things kind of like married to each other, like the matchmaking academy is just my, like that helps me make more matchmakers that I can collaborate with. So, it kind of makes sense, right? And then the matchmaking app, I mean, I put that time that work into that a lot, like years ago, so it just runs itself. Um, and then my biggest time, um, commitment is, you know, matchmaking clients while I'm on Clubhouse because I can be on my computer. One thing about Clubhouse is that, you know, people might think you're there all day, but, and I am, but it's like a radio and I'm not constantly speaking all day. I'm on a stage, I'm sitting on a stage and you know, if you're sitting on a stage with 20 other experts that can answer that question, like I can just chime in when I really need to, but also being on the stage, um, allows people to connect with me. So, I'm really building my visibility there. Uh, so I'm, I'm never just sitting on my phone like, like this with, I can't do that. I'm cleaning my house. I'm cooking food. Like, life is happening in the background. It's only when I'm actually hosting a room and where I have to fully concentrate in, and that takes up right now, about three hours a day, um, where I'm like fully concentrating and it's become my new recruitment tool. So, like, it's become my new recruitment tool. So, I'm investing a lot of time because I'm connecting with people and people are connecting with me.

(24:37)

Kirsten: I love that. I honestly, every time I log into Clubhouse, because it gives you, like, the little like who, like who's in what room, i'm like, where, what room is Carmella in?

Carmelia: Well, listen, I encourage you to just start your own room. Are you going to do that soon?

Kirsten: Yeah, I mean, I should, I get, I honestly, like I am by default, I am only shy when I like can't be, or I'm only not shy when I like, can't be shy. You know what I mean? Like I can go give presentations and, like, facilitate things, but when it's something where it's like, okay, like jump up on a stage and tell people about yourself and like, hope people come in, I'm like, i get so nervous.

(25:18)

Carmelia: That's so interesting because you're a primary example of entrepreneurs that are rocking it in business, and then when it comes to their life, life is like, I can't have that confidence like I do at work. So, for whatever reason, right? I think that fear of rejection is real. Um, never want to feel like, um, the last kid to get picked on the sports team, right? It's like, I don't want this feeling, but you gotta treat it like this. Like really just don't take it personal, they're not, you're not their type. It's no big deal. I'm not everybody's type. I'm not everybody's matchmaker. It's hard to swallow, but when you can focus on the goal and see that, all right, he's not for me, it's going to get closer to the one who is for me. Like, just really focus on that and you'll be fine.

(26:09)

Kirsten: Yeah. I love that. I love that. No, I know, one of my goals from, like, sometime this month or next month, I'm like, I should just do a room on Clubhouse. I also put something that I think watching you has really helped with me is that because I'm a researcher and like, that's, I think too, a lot of people seem so boring that I'm like, I just like, can't open a research room on Clubhouse.

(26:30)

Carmelia: Don't be stuck in analysis paralysis. And I've seen many times onstage, some is better than perfect, you know, faking it till you make it, all of those cliches that come to mind, you learn by failing, right? And you learn by, uh, you know, if no one shows up in your room, nobody knows. So it's okay, like, you know, it's so funny when you put them on the stage and like I'm the first one, and then it's ding, and like they're in the audience and I'm like, hey, and then they leave because it's like all like just, oh my God, I'm one, but it's hilarious. It's hilarious when I'm in a room and I'm the only one. And I'm like, literally talking to… come be my friend, come to the stage. It's like, they pop in. They pop out. There's nobody here. I got to go. A lot of people, like, hide in crowds. So it's funny.

(27:22)

Kirsten: Yeah. I love that. That's such a good attitude to have about it though.

Carmelia: Well, you can find your Clubhouse buddy, right? The fellow other shy person or introvert or whatever. Maybe you'd just lock arms with somebody who's going to be like a really cool friend. And research is not nerdy. I mean, that's not boring. If there's a faster way to find an answer, then like, I want to know that.

Kirsten: Thanks. Maybe we can do a Clubhouse, saying research isn't boring.

Carmelia: Trust me, I can make anything really interesting. And I'll just add a DJ

Kirsten: I was in the room with the DJ the other day. It really did. I liked it. I felt like it helped a lot.

Carmelia: I had a DJ in my media room today, and he clapped and it was bumping. It was an amazing experience. His name is DJ Doug. So, if we do a room, I'll make sure there's a DJ so that when there's dead air, you can play some music.

(28:17)

Kirsten: I love that. I love that. Oh my gosh. Well, to wrap up, I would love to ask you two things. One is, what would you say is your biggest piece of advice for people who, people who were entrepreneurs? I would say it could be business advice or love advice, but just if someone's an entrepreneur right now, like it's a difficult time, lots of people are struggling. What advice would you give to people to just keep moving forward?

(28:45)

Carmelia: Uh, well you answered the only question I would just say, don't keep doing the same things that are not giving you those results. So, if you are on the same dating app, if you're using the same photos, if you're messaging the same people or the amount of time, like maybe you need to change your dating app, maybe you need to change your dating profile, maybe you've got to change your bio description, like doing this - it's such a true statement doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results is insanity. So do that. The other thing is to reach out to a professional, right? Ask a friend, ask other people like, Hey, how did you meet your single friends who are now coupled? How'd you meet your boyfriend? Which dating site was that, what did you do? What did you have to say? It's really trying new things.

(29:34)

Carmelia: You have to step outside of your comfort zone, but you also have to put it in your calendar, right? Things don't get done. Half the time, when I don't put things in my calendar, they literally get put aside, I'll give an example, I'm doing a room tomorrow on crypto, as I mentioned, and I'm also doing a TV appearance at the same time, I was like, I can't move, I cannot move both. So, I found a different moderator for that room and I contacted this TV station. I'm like, is this pre-recorded? Can I move it? It's like, no, it's live, I'm like, and why? Because I didn't put it in my calendar. And I think you and I, this is, we've tried to have this happen. So I'm so happy we're finally having this. It only took like three months, I think, to like, have this conversation, like, really? And part of it is just, it is pandemic, it is a schedule, you know, I am taking care of my parents. I have kids at home. I'm running a crazy schedule, but it has to be put in the calendar. And I think that's where, um, you know, you've got to put dating in the calendar, whether it is okay, I'm going to go on a dating site, three hours a week. I'm going to go to, uh, I'm going to sign up for a singles event. I'm going to go to Clubhouse and go to Shoot Your Shot room. Like, whatever, just get uncomfortable and do things differently. Don't keep doing the same things or don't give up, you know, like maybe take a pause, but it's so hard to build momentum. And also guys for our latest gentlemen, when you date, I believe in dating more than one person at a time, or at least engaging in conversation with at least two or three people. And it's not like, until that relationship escalates to something physical or where somebody's a clear contender, like they clearly want your interest or showing you your time. They want to be with you, because people can tend to be very flaky at this time. And this is another complaint, a lot of my clients are saying, when they're dating online or my coaching clients, you know, it was great. And then they fell off and it's like, well, who do you have lined up? Well, nobody I thought was… well, exactly. Don't, you know, hold space for somebody not holding space for you.

(31:56)

Kirsten: Yeah. I love that. So to close out, where can people find you online? On what, what are all your handles, Carmelia?

(32:05)

Carmelia: Oh gosh. I'm so easy to find. It's Carmelia ray.com on Clubhouse, it's everywhere in the world it's @CarmeliaRay. Like, I got it on Twitter, I got it on Facebook, I got it on Instagram, like @CarmeliaRay, I got it on Snapchat. So yeah, you can stalk me. You can, like, literally. And then on my Instagram bio, I have a link, um, socio tap, actually, I think Kirsten, you should get that link. Have you seen the socio tap link? I'm going to shout out to this company. You go to my Instagram, it replaced my link tree. It's called socio taps. So, all of the cool offerings and projects that I'm working on, there's about 15 links there. Like my school, the dating app, the Clubhouse playbook, like buying me a coffee, going on a date, like a virtual date, getting my time, like it's all there. So, and then there's my, there's a video posted of safe Valentine's day date ideas. And actually those safe date ideas can take place, uh it's like evergreen, you can have those safety ideas, not just for Valentine's day. It can be any day of the year.

Kirsten: I saw that. That was really cool. I loved it. Yeah.

Carmelia: So thank you so much for having me on your podcast.

Kirsten: Thank you so much. I find you so inspiring. I love talking to you. I love being, I mean, just everything you do is so great. So I really appreciate your time.