Season 2: Ep. 13 - Graceful Rulebreaking with: Bill Chen and Mathieu Williams
(0:27)
Kirsten: Hello, and welcome back to Graceful Rulebreakers. I'm your host, Kirsten Lee Hill, and today I am super excited to introduce you to two incredible edupreneurs, Bill Chen and Matthew Williams. Bill is passionate about creating successful schools for cultivating amazing things like belonging and total well-being, and he's a teacher right now, but has super extensive training in school leadership as well. Mathieu teaches media and technology and he was recently named Hawaii's state Teacher of the Year. Congratulations. That's amazing. Also, together they lead a venture called Be Curious, it supports student led learning and curiosity, and it's just doing incredible work in Hawaii. Hello, Mathieu. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here today.
Mathieu: Thanks for having us. Excited.
Bill: Yeah, I'm very happy to be here.
(1:16)
Kirsten: Your backgrounds are so fascinating. And I was reading through all of … you've been to a lot of schools, both of you, done a lot of training and are still teaching today. Can you tell us a little bit about, I guess, how did you first get passionate about education? And then also how did you connect with one another and continue on your education path?
Bill: Yeah, I for me, it really started when I was in college, and we were talking a lot about what's happening in education and I realized that I grew up in kind of a bubble, I grew up in a small town called San Gabriel California, and it's kind of like a little bubble. And hearing people's experiences outside of that bubble really made me look at some of the educational inequities that we have here in America, and that's kind of what put me on this path here, and being here in Kailua Kona in Hawaii, through Teach for America, I, it's my eighth year here, which is kind of crazy, and an update to that bio is this is my first year actually as a vice principal at our local high school. So, that's also been an interesting journey. But I think Mathieu and my journey started, for me, obviously, through Teach for America, we both came here through Teach for America. But I think I distinctly remember this conversation outside of Starbucks. We generally like to work at Starbucks late at night, and we're just walking out and we're just kind of puzzled, like, how do we keep our families and our students engaged? You know, because we see that students were really engaged in our classroom, and doing awesome work, but it wasn't necessarily happening school wide. And so that kind of conversation kind of launched us into this journey that we're on now. But I'll let Mathieu share a little bit more.
(3:18)
Mathieu: Yeah, and I think, you know, how we, kind of piggyback off where Bill just left off. You know, there's not a lot of people building a team, no sleep. You know, we love to create programs, create relationships that's just like rooted in excellence, and centered around belonging and I think that, to me, that was like that natural like, hey, Bill, Mathieu, you know, let's just see what this looks like, centered around community. We just love learning from our community. This is definitely not we're, you know, we grew up but I think community is where you belong. And I think that's something that Bill and I… we had that instant feeling of belonging as we've continued to do work here. So, I actually grew up born and raised in Kaneohe. My parents moved to Washington State for education reasons, wanting us to have better educational opportunities. So, I was privileged to, you know, my dad was able to just pick up and just go and find work and make that happen. And I think, you know, for me passionate about education, it was something that my parents always talked a lot about. It was always never a question of, you know, are you going to go to school and like, you're going to do it and when I think about like, my grandma's are important part of my life and, and my grandma on my mom's side, you know, she her education was only up to sixth grade, right? And so, I feel like learning from them, it's formerly in the classroom but now it's the classroom everywhere now, especially when you think about the pandemic, right? And so, there's so many things that I learned from my grandparents who worked so hard, plantation workers, that giving back through education was like something that I think was just, I was always passionate about, I was a student teacher out and in the Marshall Islands in college, and I came back like wondering like, man, that was like a really, that feeling that fulfillment of like service was something that I was looking for, and then, like Bill said, Teach for America was that natural pathway for us to meet each other and that opportunity of like being placed here, in a way, I was like, Yes, like, this is, what's two years, and I'm in year nine, and it's like, still at my placement schools, so shout out for Teach for America for allowing me to still, for placing me here and then continue to support me, um, throughout. And then like, they'll say, like, we both were successful within the classroom. But I think we've just started to look around and be like, why can't this type of success, this community success be for all kids? And so that's kind of been our journey, and like, how we got to this place of our adventure.
(6:17)
Kirsten: I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about how you both create community and like how you develop a sense of belonging? Because I know, obviously, you all know my backgrounds in education also, and I think one of the big criticisms of like, lots of education ventures, like, including Teach for America is that you are taking people from like, outside and like putting them in a community, and like giving them like advantages and different types of power and things. And to see you two are so actively working on, like, you're part of the community and like you're working to create more belonging. How did you approach that? Or did you feel, like, tension around that? So, for other people who are like coming into spaces who, like start as outsiders, like, what can you do to navigate that?
Bill: Yeah, that's a good question. And I think one of our values as an organization is belonging, it's belonging, curiosity, and agency. And to me, belonging is directly tied to equity. And how we make people feel about themselves, who they are, is directly connected to their identity and how much power they hold in our community. And I think 4.0 was a really big part of our journey is, you know, making sure that we do things with people and not to people. And I think it started with, we had these listening tours, where we just kind of went around the community, asked for feedback about education, and just talk to different people in different sectors in the community. And I think that really informed us in how our community sees education, I think we can always do more of that. And I think this next step for us, where we're trying to co-design with students, because they're going to be the end users of our product is really important for us to make sure that belonging is tied to equity, because if students feel like they belong, feel like they have a voice. I think power in our students is very important, because that means that they'll be able to see their future so that they know I can do X, Y, Z in order to achieve this goal of mine. And so I think, yeah, that was a big step for us to be able to do things with the community and not to the community.
Kirsten: Yeah.
(8:44)
Mathieu: Yeah. And I think just to add quickly to Bill, when I first started teaching, I remember uncle Wally Lau, my first year of teaching he mentioned to all of us, he said, seek to understand, right? And I think when you come from a place of seeking to understand, and I think that's a lot of that curiosity piece, I think it really disarms what people think of you, especially when you're not from here, right? And you're, you're truly just here to, like, listen and then if a challenge is coming up then you know, to act upon it with as Bill was saying, with them. And I think just coming in with just like that seeking to understand mentality, and just going, you know, wherever, wherever that takes you. I think it's a beautiful thing, like you alluded to in the question, it's complex. But then I think we both go to sleep at night, knowing this is what's right for our community as we continue to, like, deepen our belonging.
Bill: And it's interesting because you know, Hawaii has a very complicated history with settlers coming especially from the continental United States into Hawaii and kind of infiltrating and bringing their ideas here. And so I think it was really important for us really to put a mirror up to ourselves to look at who we are as individuals and our identity and how we can leverage our positional power or our privileges to then create more opportunities for students. I think another way that I kind of look at it is, how do we create an opportunity so that we work together and not necessarily bring in kind of dominant white supremacist ideas? But how do we learn about the history of this place? How do we utilize traditional Hawaiian values, Hawaiian ideas into our curriculum? I think one thing that I've been thinking about, especially with the amount of the rising violence towards Asian Americans around the United States is how we've been able to kind of learn the story of each individual student, because I think, you know, all of the, there's a lot of Asian American Pacific Islanders here on the island. But what is so distinct about each of them is that their journeys are so different. So being Chinese American is very different than growing up on the Marshall Islands and coming here, even though they're considered a Pacific Islander, and so I think for us taking the time to hear their story, hear what their family went through to come to Hawaii, where some of the challenges, where some things that we faced that were similar, where some things that we faced that were different, I think that is really important to kind of building collaboration with our community members.
(11:41)
Kirsten: How is that different from what you both experienced going to school? Because I think about like, when I went to public school outside of Chicago, and I don't think really anyone cared that much about getting to know me as a person, you know, like, honestly, it was just kind of like, do your homework, like, show up for class, raise your hand. So, I'm curious, like, does your approach in the classroom and of like, cultivating these environments and spaces within schools, is it different from what you experienced growing up?
Bill: Yeah, I'd say so for me, you know, I think part of it's also being in a small community, you know, like, we often will see our students out at Target or Costco, or if we go to the local store to buy things. So, I think part of that is just a smaller community. But I think, for me, you know, I would never see my teachers outside of school, I would not see them as, like, community leaders. But I think, for us, we see ourselves as not just like teachers or school leaders, but we see ourselves as being part of the community. So for example, I was having this conversation with the high school student, and he was telling me about his booming kind of haircut business, and I think if I were in his position, I wouldn't necessarily talk about my haircut business or invite anyone, but he invited me to get a haircut. And I think that's what's unique about this community is that we need to have conversations with students about their passions, and kind of be able to connect and draw connections rather than put up walls, which I think a grown up I felt there were a lot more walls put up then, there were about connecting with people.
Kirsten: Did you get the haircut?
Bill: No, not yet. I still want to grow it out a little bit.
(13:37)
Kirsten: I love that. And I think that this is something that is one of the status quo pieces that we've talked about before and that you're passionate about changing is this idea that, like adults hold all the control and like adults are leading the learning, right? Whereas I think what you two are talking about as much more I mean, like full person for starters, like actually getting to know students as humans, but also letting them kind of take initiative, what do you feel is the resistance to that? Like, because it's so the norm to have an adult in charge, making all the decisions from y'alls perspective? Like, why do you think that is? And like, what is the fear behind letting students take more of a role in their own learning?
Bill: I think it's tied to equity and justice. I think people are comfortable with things that they can control, right? And I think, you know, even myself, part of my identity work is understanding, you know, what, what drives my urge to control what students do, you know, and so, I think in terms of equity and justice, I think that means deconstructing systems of racism and equity by putting political, financial and social capital in the hands of marginalized groups, and that includes students. Mathieu and I talk a lot about Native Hawaiian and my Micronesian populations here. And I think what drives that fear of putting that capital into the hands of our students is this idea that they won't know what to do with it. They don't they, they wouldn't be able to do that was it the same way you would be able to I think, Mathieu and I come from the mind set of the teacher is not the holder of all that knowledge, but that the students are the ones who have that knowledge in their hands, but their, their hands are tied, because people don't give them the opportunities for them to use those resources. And so, for me, it's about testing it, and if I think people fear, like, if we give that power to students, it's going to be like an up roar, or, you know, a riot. And what Mathieu and I have learned it is not, I think they felt empowered, to make changes themselves.
(16:02)
Mathieu: Yeah. And I think to add to that, too, it's giving power to the creation side of what students do. I think the difference between learning, when we all were learning was like, we didn't have so much technology, and like our thoughts or ideas can just be there, right? It's a scary thing. But I think we too often, educators, society, create fear around creating, instead of how do we create? How do we be curious around intention around intentional things around solving the challenges that matter most to the hearts and minds of our community? And I think Bill and I are always about like, what do you think kind of mentality, right? And like, let's go, let's go for it, let's attack it, and let's just commit to it. And, and we'll see what happens, right? There's nothing helping students understand, like, failing safely, right? Within our space, within our place, and our organization is like, super important. Like, we're all for that. And we just want students to make sure that they really own the things that they create, the things that they say and act upon, and making sure that it's centered again around our community, and what's best for all of us.
Kirsten: Do you feel that there's like an age at which this begins, I think a lot about like, the common like rhetoric and education with people who are like, not on the more innovative side, where it's like, students just like have to learn these like basic skills, like there's all these things that you like, quote, unquote, like have to do and like, then once you do all those things, like, then you can have more freedom, then you can be more creative. So within the context of like, an entire school, is this something you all feel like, anyone can do this at any age. Like, do you worry that people won't get basic, like reading or math skills, if they're learning in a non traditional way?
(18:00)
Mathieu: You know, I don't know if we've ever thought of it in that way. I mean, it's just right now, so oftentimes, society, even, quite sadly, schools operate so much from a deficit point of view. Instead of looking at strengths, and I think about how we learn, we're constantly learning, right? New things and evolving. And I think our responsibility is like, be curious as an organization is just like having students understand that they're valued, that they matter, building that confidence, latching on to the things that they care most about, that they're interested about. And then connecting them to people to then have that playground, that practice to then go in and do those things, right? And then utilizing the experiences at school with us, with their own lived experiences and identities. And I think that's true learning. And I think math and English, right? All that stuff plays into it just naturally. Many times I think we complicate, right? Like what kids are supposed to learn. But if we just put them out there, right? Build their confidence. They'll have that self motivation to just go chase all of those other things and get better at it, and around the right things for them.
(19:30)
Bill: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think I don't necessarily think there's a time and space for students to enter. But I do think the younger they are the fewer of those shared experiences that drive their curiosity. And so we just recently had worked with a cohort of students and we noticed that there was a difference in how they cared about their community challenge in terms of if they were younger, they just have fewer experiences with that particular challenge. And so just their analysis would not necessarily be as deep as some who were a little older and had more experiences with their challenge, and were able to articulate a little bit more, but yeah, I totally agree with Mathieu here.
Kirsten: Something I keep thinking about is like, when I was in high school, we had to do this project where you had to learn, like, you basically had to be able to make your, your profile of your face on a graphing calculator using like, different like, regression equations like that. That was Advanced Math. And it was horrible. But I think like, if someone had like, connected me with someone who like, the only way they could solve a problem was using a regression, or like, the math problem actually adds a meaning to it. It's like, I'm sure I could have learned that because I would have been invested in the outcome. Whereas like, having a printout of my face, like, that wasn't that wasn't exciting.
Mathieu: Yeah, like, like the meaning behind the learning matters, right? Because we're on the same path, like, why do I have to do that? If like, where's the connection? If not, then like, I don't really care about it, right? Like, sometimes we don't ask ourselves like, would I want to do this, right? It's really ironic how that all, yeah, plays out.
(21:14)
Kirsten: Can you talk a little bit just like explicitly about your programming, and if there's like an example you can give us of like one of the challenges people have focused on and like, kind of, what does that look like for people who are listening, well like, okay, well, how do you, how do you teach in this way? How do you create these experiences?
Bill: Yeah, I'll talk about our most recent one. Just through the 4.0 tiny fellowship, we create, like a pilot plan, thank you to Kirsten for helping us with that. We really appreciate it though, because it really helped us narrow our focus. And we really tried to tie it to, again, our values of curiosity, belonging and agency. And so we kind of went through a two month programming with students, two to three months programming, and we want to test if peer to peer learning and student design learning would be able to engage students a lot better than if Matthew or myself were leading the students. And so we worked with one of our curiosity leads, her name's Riley, and she and us kind of co-designed the project together and ended up being a TED talk project where the students first started with knowing who they were as people, because of kind of diving into belonging and identity. And Matthew and I, in conjunction with some of our community stakeholders, designed a curiosity kit for students. I forget exactly all the items in there. But there was like, some snacks in there, there was a whiteboard in there for them to kind of draw, there was play-doh. Yeah, I think a lot of the items were really tied to understanding who they are as people. And as we moved along, I went through the TED Talk, and we worked with them on some of their individual challenges. So for example, one challenge I remember someone talking about was about the challenge of homelessness in our community and what they could do with it. And this particular student had developed her speech around her experience with the homeless, and each week, we kind of worked in groups helping her developer speech and had one on one coaching with her, and really, we wanted at the very end, to allow us to see where they set what their topics, so how are they able to build on the agency. And so at the very end, we kind of had a little group gathering where each student developed and gave their TED Talk. And we're kind of sitting in that agency piece, like how do we then allow our students to be able to connect with the community, to be able to see their project through, but I think we first started with the TED talk so that they could really bring around a tie together, curiosity, belonging and agency.
Kirsten: I love it. What was the response like from? I'm curious, like, from students, and also from parents about the experience?
(24:30)
Mathieu: I think, you know, learning is a journey, right? And so when they all know about TED Talks, right? And just to give them additional context, Bill and I, right? I think what was cool about the fellowship program, and just 4.0 was just getting really narrow with our focus and what we're measuring. And so we latched on to the TED talk because they had flushed out curriculum, right? And so where we wanted to latch onto was like that peer to peer. What does it look like when a student is designing these programmatic, programmatic, is that a word? Programmatic opportunities for other kids, right? And so it's always a question, what do you think? How do you think that kids respond? Well, like, maybe we should do it this way? Or like, I was like, Okay, that's good, like, you know, and just help relieve that. And so I think when you think about learning as a journey, and they know about TED Talks, they come in, like, oh, that's cool, I know what a TED talk is. And then, you know, fast forward, it's like, oh, now I'm like, learning what a through line is right? Like, how to give my hook. And then at the end, like, oh, really? I actually did that, right? And I think we're always big about, like, reflecting on it. And so I think, I think they were surprised. I know, they were surprised, because I think they didn't realize how much they have learned throughout that part. And then one of the parents when I was waiting to have her, for a parent to pick her up, like she was just so thankful, like that we had invested the time, but more importantly that she had found something that she cared about, and that she could see her daughter, like, taking the time at home, to like, massage it, make it better, ask questions. And also the parents were like giving her feedback, right? So you have, like, family learning taking place. So I think that was powerful for me to hear, and receive that type of feedback.
Bill: I think one thing that Matthew really pushed us on was, how do we develop a sense of belonging in a virtual space, right? Because we couldn't necessarily gather. And so the idea of having the Curiosity kits, where we all put everything together, and each student got the same kit, designed for them, that was kind of a shared experience that brought the whole group together. And I really enjoyed working with our curiosity lead Riley, because she had the idea of using the playdough to connect with their identity and who they were. And I think that was a really powerful experience for each student to present their kind of playdough. And they were able to share it with another member and they brought it well, we had to deliver, we had to go to each house, forget their play doh and then deliver it to the next household. And I think in sharing that I think creating shared experiences is crucial to belonging. And I really appreciate that insight that both Matthew and Riley had in kind of bringing that sense of belonging to the space.
Kirsten: I also love like, honestly, as you're talking at first I forgot that it was even, how could I forget that things were virtual. But I mean, it's incredible that you're still able to do it in a virtual environment, because I think that that I mean, that's been a huge concern is like, people can't possibly feel like they belong, but the focusing in on having a shared experience, and also I think making that, like, tactile is really interesting and exciting. So, I'd love to talk about the Graceful Rulebreaking aspect of your work, like more specifically. So what do you both like, resonates with you about being a Graceful Rulebreaker? And how do you see the work you're doing as breaking the rules, gracefully?
(28:37)
Mathieu: It's a good question. Um, one thing that, so recently, we got a grant through the Reinvention Lab Teach for America, and a show covering the vice president who runs the whole thing she thinks about this idea of thinking big and starting small. And when we think big and start small, like, what does that look like within a community, right? And how do you onboard a community without those big ideas? Like, to Bill what he was saying at the start, right? Like not making it like the law of the land, right? But how does it really reflect the values of our student community? And then the larger community? And so I think for us, we've really learned early on, of like, what is our values? And so if it's curiosity, belonging and agency, what's like our, you know, informal measure, that we can talk to our student leads and ask them; where are you finding it? Like, how are we seeing it show up, right? And I think that's been really insightful, especially during this pandemic, to just like, lean into those values a lot more, be intentional about them. And I think it's helped us be a lot more graceful with how we navigate. And in that, in that idea of, like, thinking big, starting small. But I think it resonates and makes sure that we're always doing what's right for our students and community.
Bill: Yeah, to add on to Matthew, I think a big part of that has been narrowing our focus. And I think the pandemic has given us some time to narrow our focus. And I think part of being a graceful rule breaker is knowing that it will be a lot more difficult, you know, there's pros and cons to destroying the whole system and start from ground zero. And then there's also pros and cons to being a graceful rule breaker and knowing what those pros and cons are, I think Matthew and I originally, back in 2015, when we had that conversation outside of Starbucks, we were thinking this would be completely separate from the educational system, that we'd have to create something from ground zero. And I think, as we've narrowed our focus, we realize that it can't be separate from the system, it has to be with the system and with the people in the system. And so I think our vision has changed, it used to be a platform, and I think we were, if the vision was like, we'd give West Hawaii students a platform to kind of share their curiosity and nurture their passions, and now I think we narrowed the vision into kind of relentlessly exploring the intersect between compassion, identity and learning to be courageous creators of change. And I think, as Matthew and I have gotten busier, we've had to look within our our roles, my mine as vice principal, his as a digital media specialist, and look at how we can integrate that vision in our roles, so that it's not separate from what we're doing, but included in what we're doing. So I think the graceful rule breaking part is integrating what we know to be true into our jobs and into our day to day and not just making them separate.
(32:26)
Kirsten: Yeah, well, I love that because I think that there's I know, I have like, listeners on like, both sides of the spectrum, like some who are just like operating completely outside of systems, some who are like, stuck within a system and like maybe want to create changes, but like, can't or like, don't, haven't honed in on how exactly to do that yet. And I think what you're saying is so important, because you'd like you're both working in a school, and you're also doing this really incredible, innovative thing. And it's not like you had to choose one or the other. And I think when you talked about equity earlier, I think about this a lot, is like people, like, the idea behind having a system to some extent is to like, have more equitable access. So if we, like, leave the system, then it's like we have, we have this separate other place and like, have to figure out how to get people in there. Whereas if we just fix the system that's broken, it seems like some of the structural pieces are already there. They just have a lot of, like, terrible baggage and things wrong with them. But I think blowing up the systems always makes me nervous, because it's just like, but like you're building, you're just gonna make a new one then, right? It's like, because you still want to bring everyone into the fold.
Mathieu: Yeah, and I think to add on to that, um, it seems obvious, but it can be so hard is like work that collaboration people with that collaboration piece, excuse me, and like working with people who push our boundaries, so like yourself, FA, 4.0, the Reinvention Lab, right? And then those types of relationships, I think have helped us understand, like, how to navigate systems based upon people's experiences, right? And what they found and then there's going to be people that we collaborate with, that help us narrow, right? Our boundaries and be like, you know, that was a great learning experience, i'm probably never gonna do it again. But because we know now, like, right, like what we're all about, and like, what our through line, the clarity of it, you know, so I think that's another way of just like gracefully navigating those types of systems that are so complex, and are sometimes a lot of times not right for students.
(34:54)
Bill: It's so interesting listening to both you Kristen and Mathieu talk about this, because we've recently tried to focus more on our emerging bilinguals. And I think your point about working outside this system, I look at a lot of organizations that work outside our system. And again, there's pros and cons to working outside and inside and for outside, I think a lot of flexibility and a lot of programmatic pieces to it. And yet, maybe not necessarily working with the target population that Mathieu and I are passionate about. Because they might not have access to it, or there's transportation issues. And so lately, as we've been talking about, some are awesome emerging bilinguals in our schools, we've talked about how do we integrate this program within the school day, that both supports them in accessing English and accessing resources, and at the same time, tapping into kind of their curiosity so that they become creators of change. And I think we see ourselves in the system being able to work with our partners outside the system to create that access for our students here.
Kirsten: Yeah, I love that. And I think collaboration to me is just so key to creating change in the world, right? Like everyone has their own, like unique skill set or access to different resources. And it's just so important, I think, to connect people. And that's something I really admire about y'alls work. And also, just what you stand for a value stand point is, I feel like there's a lot of almost like humility, like it takes humility to let other people lead and to be like, I don't know the answer, like, let's talk to more people, or like, we failed and now we're gonna do it differently. And I think that that's something that a lot of people struggle to do, but that it has so much power to like further the impact that you're making. I'd love to end with any advice that you have for other people who are aspiring to create change within the system, outside of the system either one, just any any advice based on I mean, you all have come so far and like such a short period of time and are doing incredible work, and would just love to know what, if there's any big takeaway or piece of advice that you would give people?
(37:16)
Bill: I think we've kind of sprinkled it throughout the podcast, I think one for me is finding ways to work with your community. And I think it's really hard when people don't feel connected to the community that they move into, or that they grew up in. And I think finding opportunities to work with your community is really important. I think, a second one, and Mathieu brought this stuff, is around being able to work with people who will push your boundaries. And so whether it's you Kirsten asking us questions, and really having us reflect or our mentor FA, who did the same thing and shared her experience, I think you need people who will push your boundaries. And then like Mathieu said, the third thing is being able to partner with people who will then help you narrow your values and narrow your boundaries so that you are involved in experiences that then will make you reflect and say was that right for my organization? Was that right for me? Or was it not? And then if it's not, like, what is that? What is that line that you're drawing in the sand? I think those are kind of three things that came up in the talk. I don't know if Mathieu had other ones.
Mathieu: Yeah, I just think maybe something we didn't necessarily touch on is like start fast, reflect often. Once you know, you know what your community is looking for, like, start it with the kids already, like just get going. I think sometimes Bill and I, you know, we want the details and all those different kinds of things because we really are centered around, like, doing good work. But you know, you can only do that for so long. And then you got to learn from those mistakes. And so I think it's just about like, yep, let's try it. Right, are we leading with those, with our three values? And then let's just make sure that we reflect on it, right? And then let's just do it again. And let's do it again. And let's, like, do it again. And so I don't know how many iterations we are in with this, but like, you know, and it's fun, right? It's chaotic, but it's fun. And, you know, I think, you know, side note, I think you know if you're if you're doing with someone find a good co-founder, Bill is great, keeps me honest. Play to strengths, and I think, yeah, just buckle up because it's yeah, it's a journey for sure. But it's one that I think we look back and be like, wow, like we did that with the students, that's so cool. Oh, yeah, and share your story. You know, I think I'll never forget when we were Teach for America Hawaii, we got accepted to like, share your idea, pitch your idea. We did it with a couple students. And I remember AJ and Connie now they're like, oh, so mister like, did we win? Did we get, like, this big check. And it wasn't about necessarily that, like we got, we got some money at the end. But it was about sharing the story, because when we look back, when was that, Bill, like 2000, 2019? And how far right, 5013C now, like, more students like we've gone through pandemic, like, getting involved 4.0 the tiny and, like, Reinvention Lab, like, that was because of storytelling, right? And so always take time to like, after that reflection, like, what's that story? You know, what are you learning from all the things that you started? So yeah, share your story often
Kirsten: I love that. How can people support what y'all are doing?
(40:50)
Bill: I think in the beginning, Matthew and I were always looking for resources. But I think as we've narrowed our focus, we realize, actually, the best support people can give us is just connecting with us, sharing their ideas, and then allowing us to kind of reflect with them, and kind of going back and forth. And I think whenever we go through like 4.0, or the Reinvention Lab, my fun part of that is like looking at everyone else who's got the same thing, and then looking at okay, what can I ask them about what they did there? Or what can they ask me about what we did, so that we can kind of connect, so I would offer to just be able to connect with us. Whether it's through our new website, BeCurious.space or our former website Westhawaiistudents.org. Just using those two to connect with us or find us on Twitter. Matthew's handle is at @Mathieu_ W, and mine is @WildBillChen. Just connecting with us through those avenues. So that again, people who will help us narrow our boundaries, and really help us narrow in into what our vision and our values are. So I think that's one way people can kind of work with us.
Mathieu: And I think another one like, a little bit more specific would be, we talk about student voice a lot. But it's really hard sometimes to find what that process looks like. And I think we need to build more communities. Whether it's here locally in Hawaii, or just like across the state, or across the country. I think it's just really beneficial for just like students, so if you're out there, like, wanting your students to like, you know, connect with other students, we'd love to have our students like, in whatever way, because our students actually right now. So Ellie and Riley, they're just just kind of just doing some research on, like, what does it mean to have student run organizations, and they've gotten some names of some good ones. But I think there's just not enough of just, like, learning that process. So yeah.
(43:09)
Kirsten: So, thank you both so much for taking the time to join me today. It's been great. I'm really excited about the work y'all are doing. I hope everyone checks out your work. I love… I was on your website today. And I love the three, the three pictures are such good storytelling, which people will see when they go to your website. But yeah, I thought that was great. So thank you.
Mathieu: Yeah, but also thanks for being part of the journey. I mean, yes, you helping us measure peer to peer learning and curiosity that those metrics are super important. I think, Bill and I yeah, like, well, how would Kirsten measure this? I don't really know if this is working. So no, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Kirsten: Oh, yes, of course. It has been a pleasure.
To learn more and Bill & Mathieu’s work, visit: http://westhawaiistudents.org
