Season 2: Ep. 22 - Graceful Rulebreaking with: Michele Olivier

(0:21)

Kirsten: Hello, and welcome back to Graceful Rulebreakers. I'm your host, Kirsten Lee Hill, and I am super excited about today's guest, Michele Olivier. She is a principal consultant with OMH consulting, where she offers a really unique perspective on career development and job searching. She has over 20 years of experience in HR and recruitment, and has filled roles for household names like Microsoft, EA games, Facebook, the YMCA, but she also works with individuals who are just established professionals and helps them land awesome positions at places like Goldman Sachs and the Red Cross. What I really love about Michele is she has a super, no nonsense approach to advice and careers, and I just like I'm so excited to have that in the world. And here with us today. So, welcome. Thank you so much for being here

Michele: Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I'm not sure if this may be officially the first time in my life, I've been called graceful. It's a high bar for me, you don't even know, this is a high bar day for me.

Kirsten: You know, I feel like to be successful in your industry, you have to have like some level of grace or people will just be like, I can't even engage with this human.

(1:48)

Michele: Well, now. So, I have learnt grace. Um, but I would say, so I spent 10 years of my life and career living and working in the UK. And it's a very different work ethos over there, and I got a lot of feedback, especially early on that I was too American. And that I was too loud, that I was too brash, that I was too, too, too, too, too, too, too. And I had options. And so my options around that, right? Where I could ignore that and carry on and just let the world be damned. Or I could embrace all of that and change me at a fundamental level, which seemed like a terrible plan. Or what I did, which was like, I really listened to that, and I was like, okay, I'm not being heard. So what can I do that lets me be heard, but still be me. And so I worked really hard to kind of try to find balance. I also discovered, like, that it was also pretty informative about how I work and the types of roles that I do. So working in an ongoing team of people, unless it is a very special environment that is really genuinely committed to growth and change, and that sort of thing is hard if you are not a rule follower, because teams need you and need everybody to follow the rules. And especially when you're HR, right? Like, we make the rules, we should follow them. That seems reasonable. When you are kind of by nature, a questioner and a rule breaker, that's really hard for people in general. And so part of what that taught me was I work really well in a consulting basis, because then I get paid to come in and break your rules. And then I get to leave. So, I don't have to pretend to embrace your culture. I don't have to go to your potluck. I don't have to like all of those types of things in that capacity. I don't have to do. I get paid to come in as an expert and say, hey, here are the 15 things that you're doing wrong, and if you want to stop being whatever it is that I'm helping you stop being, then you should probably change those and here are suggestions for that. Okay, thanks bye! And I get to leave, which is nice.

(4:41)

Kirsten: I love that. Is that what drew you? Like, how did you end up in the consulting, on the consulting side of things? Is that like what the appeal was? Like, you know what, actually, I could do things more my own way.

Michele: You get to just do the sexy part and not the bullshit. Do you know what I mean? Like, so for me, my… I have worked for a very long time, as you said, in recruitment in HR. And what it has reinforced 1000 times over for me is that the way that we do things is terrible, umm, and that we should find a better way, and that there are actually better ways that have been identified. And I know that like with your work, you get this all the time, and it must drive you nuts as well, like, we scientifically know that resumes don't work. We scientifically know that interviews don't work. We have like literally hundreds of studies that prove that over and over and over again, and then we keep doing them. And we have clear, good scientific data on other approaches that do work. Things like assessment centers, things like skills, aptitude, and not aptitude, but like skills test, especially things that use gamification modules, and that sort of stuff. There's all kinds of things that do work. And people are super resistant to it, because it's different. And also, I think that there is an element of fear of the unknown that like, we all know what a resume is. We've all had one our whole life, we're very, however bad it may be, it's the devil we know, as opposed to, there's this feeling of well, but if I acknowledged it that's bad, and I start trying to do something else, I have to find somebody to help me walk that path, and that can be kind of hard. So for me, like, what is exciting about being a consultant is a lot of the consulting I do is helping companies walk that other path. Does that make sense? And so it is bringing change, and it is stopping insanity, which is always great. And it's also super creative, because I get brought… Again, like you, like they're like, hey, I have this thing I want to measure, how does one measure that? And you're like, well, let me put on my creative juices hat. Next to my science hat, and let me tell you how this works. So it's the same, like they're like, hey, you know, I need somebody who can do these five skills? How do I measure that in a way that's meaningful? And I get to be like, oh, let me put on my creative hat, and come back to you with some exercises and some evaluation tools for an observer. And there you go. And like, and so that's kind of fun, as well.

Kirsten: I just, I talk to people about this all the time. Like, I don't have, like, content… I do have content knowledge, but I, like, don't work in the field where I have content knowledge, but I'm, like, but I can build things, you know, I mean? It's like, I could never give someone, like, the recommendation. I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what to recommend. But I can tell you like the question you're asking is like crap, and it's not getting you the information that you want to get it.

Michele: You know, that's a big part of what I do, right? So people come to me, and they're like, hey, our interview process is bad. Can you help? And my answer is always, sure, we're gonna start, like, are you determined to continue interviewing? And often the answer is yes. And so it's like, okay, so we're determined to use a bad tool. Let's make it less bad. And a lot of the advice I give is the same advice that I see you giving in social media all the time, which is stop trying to find a fancy way to ask your question, just ask your damn question. If you want to know how long somebody is likely to be in this role, don't ask them where do you see yourself in five years? That's an asinine question. Hey, hey, we're looking… We need somebody who can be in this role for 18 months. Do you feel like from what you've known, from what you've heard, that that's a commitment you could make? Just ask the damn question. It's not rocket science.

(8:59)

Kirsten: What's also really funny about that is I've only done like a handful of real job interviews in my life. But I always was like, why do they care where I see myself in five years, never thinking that it was because they were like, looking for someone to stay in the position and like, I don't know, what will I be doing in five years?

Michele: It gets me, is there's like all of this… if you're in the recruitment world, like on Twitter and stuff, inevitably, about once a week, somebody will be like, what's a great new interview question that you love? And somebody will be like, if you were a pencil, what would you do? Oh, shut up. I would stab you in the eye for asking obnoxious questions. That's what I would do. Come on, come on.

Kirsten: What is the point of those? I got asked like what are like six ways you would use a brick?

Michele: So it's because they're using the wrong tools, right? So what they are trying to ascertain is, do you have good creative problem solving skills? That question is a terrible measure of that, especially when you put it in the context of a high pressure interrogation, in which your ability to eat and not get evicted hinges on the outcome of, like, you have to put everything in that context, right? For the interviewee, and remember that the context is everything. Again, I know I'm preaching literally, I'm not even sure if you're the choir, or actually I'm preaching to the preacher at this point. You know what I mean? Like, it's so frustrating that you see them over and over and over again, that you're like, why? Why are you? You don't think about the context. So, I was working with a manager from one of the big four in technology. And one of the things that they're struggling with in technology at the moment, across… everywhere, but this big four employer in particular, has targeted their technology leaders to hire a higher percentage of women, because they want more women, more representation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So hiring managers came to me for help on what we are… What different interview questions should we ask? How do we do this differently to get more women? And I was like, well, what do you think is the problem right now? And their answer was - well, we think the problem is that they're just not any qualified women. I was like, I call bullshit. So let's try again. What do you think is the problem? And they're like, well, we keep having the interviews, and they like, they don't give strong answers for this, this and this, and it's all things that require pushback. And I said, here's what you have to remember. Women in business are taught to be pretty, but not loud. To be nice, before competent, and to not make waves, you are asking them to walk in, and within 45 seconds of meeting you, show that all of those things that they have been pressed and screamed at culturally, politically, and career wise their entire life to forget that, and suddenly behave totally differently and trust that that's actually what you want. And then you're acting surprised that they don't. And they were like, what the… I can't control those things. I was like, no, you can't control those things. You can only control this interview. And so you have to do things in this interview, to signal, to create a safe space, to signal and to balance out all of that other thing because your interview is not happening in a vacuum. It's happening in that greater context of these women's lives and the society in which we exist. And having that dialogue and helping them come up with some strategies to do that. I think it was really eye opening for them that it is just, and I think that I get that a lot of employers in their head, like this interview isn't in a vacuum. And it's not. It's in the context of their kid barfed on their first three outfits this morning, and then they didn't have any petrol in their car, and they were worried they weren't going to have enough money in their checking account to pay for the gas to get there because they don't have a job and they really desperately need one. And then they got here and their stomach was all freaking out, because they're really nervous about being at this job interview and then they walked in, and they noticed that they still had a little bit of yogurt from their kid on their shirt, and they're hoping that you're not going to see it If they move their blazer, they're like, all of those things are in this interview. And it is not reasonable for you to behave like they're not.

(14:21)

Kirsten: Why do you think people are so, I guess just like stuck in the old ways of doing that? Or if they've had the mindset, well, it's like, well, they should just get over all those things because they're coming for an interview. Like, why is that the default?

Michele: So, my experience is that we as a culture have preached for so long, that you separate personal and professional, that you leave your personal life at the door when you walk into this building. I have heard that line. I have been guilty of saying that line and I feel like a douche in retrospect, but absolutely, right? Like, as an HR professional, I have stone faced looked at an employee and said, so and so, I'm sorry that you're going through a hard time at home, I really am. But eight to five, I need you to suck it up, buttercup. And if you can't suck it up, buttercup, I need you to call in sick because I can't have you behaving like this at work. There is some legitimacy to that. But it's not a particularly human way of dealing with things. And I think that, I think 2020 has moved the needle a lot, because we weren't able to do that, and suddenly we were thrust into our personal lives. But I don't think it's moved it far enough.

(15:48)

Kirsten: Yeah, like, I just can't even… like how do you, how do you honor being yourself, but at the same time, like you're trying to get something. So it's like, like you're trying to like, I don't know, maybe people interview now, they don't try to please the person. But I would assume to some extent, you're like, I need this job. I want the job. So I'm trying to be, like, who you want me to be. But I'm also trying to be myself, how do you navigate that with people?

Michele: So, ultimately, if somebody cares, like, if somebody wants this job bad enough, that they're paying me to tell them how to do the interview, right? Like, that's the thing. So yeah, you are walking in and you're selling yourself, you're selling something in this environment, but I say teach people that it's kind of like a first date. When you go on a first date, you don't want to start off a relationship on a lie, right? If they ask you something, you're going to tell them the truth, we're going to tell them the best version of the truth. Like the least weird version of you. That's what you lead with. So my advice kind of broadly boils down to, you know, be honest, avoid being weird. And so, by weird, I don't mean like, if you're, you know, quirky, don't be quirky, be quirky, because ultimately, if you're quirky it's all get out, that's what's going to show up on Monday. And so one of the things as an employer that I want to walk out of an interview having is a really clear idea of what the hell I would be buying, if I hire you. It is the people that do not give a clear impression of what that looks like, on a Monday morning, that go into… if it's a not clear impression, but broadly positive, those people go into the maybes, if it is really clear, and really not good, they go into the the 'no'. But mostly, if it's clear and positive, it goes into 'yes.' So, my answer is always be honest, be you. If they ask you, what do you like about this job? The answer does not have to be - I have always wanted to be a janitor, and this is my opportunity to clean like I have never cleaned before. Because that would be ridiculous. Like, you know, is this, no… So, be honest, you can answer that question with either something about the job duties that you're excited about. It can be something about the company. I have always wanted to work for Blizzard Games, and honestly, I will take a job as a janitor, if that means I get a foot in the door at Blizzard Games, so here I am, and where is my mop, right? Great. Or it can be something about the opportunity that the role represents. So I have recently completed the boot camp from the University of Texas in full stack development, I really want to start my career in that direction. This role with this organization would be a great opportunity as a first step on that ladder. Fantastic. Whatever is true, but also, again, best foot forward. So I think that that's… the good news is that as I tell my clients authenticity is on trend. You know, you can have your authentic voice and like people are finally kind of opening up that that's a good thing. But I think that you know, the answer is that you just, both sides have to remember context. So, as a candidate, you also have to remember that you're here for a job interview. Everything they're asking, they don't actually care about like what you and your grandmother did when you were nine, right? They don't actually care what you did at your last Job, all they care about is whether or not you're the right match for this job today, and anything that they say or ask, etc. is in the pursuit of the answer to that question. And when you put it in that context, suddenly a lot of things fall away.

(20:19)

Kirsten: So, when you think about it, I mean, it is kind of like dating because people are trying to find the right match, right? But I guess on… when you're working with the employers, because we've talked a little bit about resumes and interviews, but I know that like you, you don't like resumes and interviews? Correct, right? So, like, what is the, I guess, what are alternative ways for employers to like, get the information that they want from those? And like, I guess what path forward do you see for like, those are so the norm, you know what I mean? Like, I think like, everyone wants to see a resume. Everyone wants to do an interview. Some places do like months of interviews, like it's wild, how many rounds of interviews people do, like, what do you see as a better alternative way?

Michele: Google just went through seven rounds of interviews.

Kirsten: Seven? Do you think people are getting like, they need seven rounds of interviews? Or what's going on? Like, why?

Michele: The problem is, you see this all the time in what you do. When you have a bad tool, you wind up creating insane structures, around the fact that you have a bad tool. Your option is, right? That you kind of get, and again, you see this with your clients, they get down this path where they have double downed so many times on this terrible legacy system or tool that they are feeling locked in. The idea of sunk cost is difficult for people to be like, I understand that last year you spent $10 million on your recruitment, I don't give a shit. It was a terrible use of $10 million. The good news is you don't have to make the same mistake this year. So, I think that's part of it, that we're mired in. I think, what should they do instead? That answer is part of the problem, because the answer to that question is - it depends. It depends on who they are. It depends on what they're looking for. Somebody like Google should absolutely pack in all of their ATS and everything. They should have a comprehensive gamified system, just like a game center on your phone, where you log in, and you're like, hey, you know, I'm Kirsten and you, they would have like multiple games that measure a number of skills, they could have leaderboards, et cetera. And then your recruiters manage those leaderboards, right? So somebody comes in, like, hey, I need a new Java developer. Great, what skills are they looking for? And they're like, we need this level of expertise on this, this on this, this on this, then they go to like tier one, I don't know, communication, because they need a fairly junior Java Developer. They need to be shit hot at Java, but not necessarily great at all the business stuff. Fantastic. So, they would go to maybe like the level three Java coder board and pick the top five folks off that leaderboard, you know what I mean? And like, they would put, you have an algorithm that says, okay, based on these things, here are the 30 candidates that actually have those skill sets. And then you would go from there. That makes sense if you're Google. If you are, you know, Mom and Pop Porque who have 20 employees, you do not have the infrastructure or need for that. But what you can do instead are the super easy things. Things like, instead of taking resumes, maybe have a Google form that just asks the information that actually you need to ask, right? What is your name? How would you like me to contact you? And then have some clear content based questions. So I have a client who is in IT and hires network engineers. I was like, great. You don't care about who they've worked for in the past. So instead, have a Google form that asks them their name and their content, tax information, and then have twenty multiple choice questions about network engineering. Half fail, if they get through, great. If they don't, okay, then the answer is no. Because that's what you care about. And when I said that to my client, she was like, that's great. He was like, it's free. I mean, you have to write it, you have to write a not terrible version. But other than that, it's free. It's self administering. And then you actually have some idea of what they know. And she was just like, I feel really stupid, that it had never occurred to me that there was something… because you're right. I don't care where they went to school. I don't even really care if they went to school. I care if they have the knowledge that I'm looking for, measure what you care about by asking questions that you don't actually care about the answer to.

(25:54)

Kirsten: I love that, because I think you see so many people hanging on to the old questions, where it's like, oh, we don't even use this, but we just have to ask it. And I'm like, if you don't use it, why do you have to ask? And it's like, well, just because we're used to, like, you know, how annoying it is to have to think about like, every job I've had for like, I don't know, or like, you know, when you fill out those things, it's like, oh, but if you upload your PDF resume will just like pull… i'm like, you're gonna read like seven pages of my CV, converted into these weird, like… there's no way. If people, i'm with you, if people don't care about it, it's like, don't ask it. But I also wonder the extent to which people know, or can articulate what they actually care about, like, I would think that's part of the problem.

Michele: It is a big part of the problem. And so, you know, in recruitment, I will tell you most of getting a job description involves the hiring manager, waxing lyrical about what they liked, and then also what they didn't like about the last person who did this job. And then your job description is an amalgamated wish list of the high points of those two things, and has nothing to do with what the person will actually be measured on. My argument is always the job description should be, and only be, the list of KPIs for this role. That's it. And then you take those KPIs, and you say, okay, what is the best way to measure these things? If the answer is the best way to measure them is to ask the person, then by all means, have an interview and ask them, Do you know how many things, the best way to find out is to ask? Very few. Literally things like, what is your name? How would you like us to contact you? After factual information like that… things like, do you think you could commit to this job for 18 months? That is the thing that the best way to measure that is probably just to ask them at the outset. And to also understand that they probably have no idea and are likely to lie.

Kirsten: That's so true. So like, why even ask it? 

Michele: I mean, if you really feel the need to know that information, like, okay, but, what is it, what are the odds that you're going to get anything that is useful from that? I feel like companies need a lot of help, in terms of, you know, statistical likelihood of usable data. I said, If your question has a clear right answer in an interview situation, don't use it, because you will just always get the right answer, or the person in front of you is a moron. So if you just want to know if there are moron, there are easier ways. But don't insult the intelligence of the non-morons.

(28:54)

Kirsten: That's yeah. I just keep thinking too, about I don't know if this is, this is just what I've observed in like, the social good space is a lot of the, when they're hiring all the job descriptions that come out and are just very, like, It's so fluffy. And it's like, you're gonna do this, like magical thing and lead this and like, and I think to your point, like, if they just had the KPIs, that would be, that would be probably more boring, I guess. That's why people don't want to do it, because it's just like, it would be so straightforward.

Michele: And I think that if they said something meaningful in the fluff, that would be great. But nobody does. People will just waffle and say a bunch of BS, and you have no idea what an actual day in this job looks like. I have literally sat down with CEOs for clients of mine and shown them their own job descriptions. And said, based on this job description, they're based on this job ad, how much do you think you pay for that role? And they're like, oh, well, looking at all of this, I mean, that's obviously one of our senior positions, because it talks about strategic input here, here and here. Incorrect. This is for an entry level role. That you're gonna pay 30 grand. But we just say that. How about we just say that, like, I see, I've seen companies put in like administrators. Like, come on. Come on. That person is not having, like, at some level is having the wrong person and opportunity for toxicity in your organization at any level. Yes, obviously, it is. But that's not what you're measuring for. And we need to get real, like, focus on the things that actually matter, and then worry about the rest. And all of that padding is I, I'm not sure who thought that was a good idea.

Kirsten: I like the specificity of the day to day because I do it's like, you'll have strategic insight. And it's like, okay, but does that mean, like, I get invited to like, one monthly meeting where like, everyone is, you know what I mean? Because it's like, that's not, I wouldn't consider that really having strategic input. But, yeah…

Michele: Drive operational targets. Um, please shut up. Like what you mean is, yeah, what they mean is like, do what you're told so that we can make money, okay? Well, that's not actually like my job, my job is to do this very specific thing. In the meantime, what you're saying is, please do your job. I feel like you don't need to put that in my job description. I think please do your job as understood. 

(31:05)

Kirsten: So, I guess thinking about how, when you push back on people, like what do you think has made you successful in this space, because like, this day, like, this is exactly Graceful Rule Breaking, it's like you have outdated systems and tools, and you're trying to like, you're probably not like, if someone still wants to use them, then you're gonna help them use it to the best of the ability, but what do you think is allowed you to, like thrive in this space of like trying to push towards something better?

Michele: Well, it really helps that I was in the UK when I started on that, because the laws around hiring in the UK and EU, make resumes and interviews much more problematic as tools, because they are… because they are entirely subjective. And so they open you up to a lot more room for claims of diversity issues, and for bias and hiring, etc. Whereas a structured Assessment Center is not only a better tool, but there's a risk mitigation. So for large organizations, one of the places I started was, I did it for one of the largest retailers in the world. And they were having a problem that allowed in their grocery stores, those managers to do the interviews, all kinds of crazy shit was getting said. And they were having lots of pushback and people not being hired for whatever. And we designed in the assessment center, that let them take the hiring out of the store, into a controlled more laboratory environment. No longer did you have store management asking whatever they felt like in a closed room, just them and an applicant that they thought nobody would ever know. And you had tools that allowed them to actually get a good measure. And by having multiple hiring managers in the same room, you suddenly created competition for top talent in a very small pool. So, suddenly, they were checking… it made them kind of, the result was they were, made them their best management self. Does that make sense? And so, getting to work in those kinds of environments. And like I said, working in a market that had a separate motivator for making that movement really, really helped. And then coming to this country. I was just that point old and set in my ways and just refused, like, walked into a position as director of talent acquisition for the YMCA, and went - we're not doing this anymore, this is bullshit. Let me show you how we're gonna do this. And they were like, holy crap. This is so much better. I was like, Yeah, I know. I do this for a living.

(34:41)

Kirsten: Oh my gosh, I feel like I want to have like… I could talk to you about this stuff, like, for days, I'm sure, it's so interesting, there's so much to unpack. Okay, but to wrap up. What I would like to ask is based on what you just said, like, now, like you're stuck in your ways, but for people who like haven't gotten there yet, like, what do you think has allowed you to get to the point where it's like, actually, I don't care anymore. Like, this is me, this is what I think. Because I think before that there's typically a period of like, back and forth, right? Where it's like, no, I really believe this, but also like, is this okay?

Michele: Well, I think that, I mean, you should always have a fundamental belief that you may be wrong. Like, when you stop thinking that in any given moment, you may be wrong, then you have a problem. And so I, there's always room for that with me as well, and to learn and grow and change. But I think that to get to the, I am clear where I fall on these, that it's a lot of education, a lot of making mistakes. And the part of it is you just have to be in the system, whatever the system is that you want to break the rules of, you have to be in it long enough to have a data sample set, large enough to be able to make a real call. So people who have been recruiters for a hot minute, and then want to come to me and tell me what it's like to be a recruiter, I'm very dismissive because of… psssh child, when you get to the 10,000th resume that you have reviewed, let's talk girl. And that's, you know, it's not me at my best self, being dismissive of people's experience. But I do think that the problem is, again, sample set size. So there are people like in HR and recruitment, who have worked for the same company for 20 years, and think that they really know those areas. You really know that area at that organization. So for me, it's a real breadth of experience. Because I've been a third party recruiter, I've worked for dozens, if not hundreds, of companies. And then when as a consultant, same kind of thing. So I've seen a myriad of different systems, which again, has given me a big enough sample set to be able to actually base, make some opinions that hold water. Does that make sense?

Kirsten: Yeah, I think it's like, to continue, like, basically to keep getting experience, right? Like keep getting experience.

(37:28)

Michele: Diversity of experience, like if you have been like if you're in the recruitment space, and you've worked for the tech sector as an in house recruiter, great. Maybe switch to being an external recruiter, or a generalized so that now, because I will tell you the difference between tech resumes and non-tech resumes, night and day, industrial recruitment, totally different, totally different. Everything and reality to like executive recruitment, as you would expect, but like the reality of that you can't really appreciate until you've dabbled at least a little out those things.

Kirsten: Well, thank you so much for being here. And I want to have you back again to talk more about… dig into the assessment and questions piece because I just like I'm so curious and so interested. So thank you so much. And I look forward to having you back.

Michele: You're so welcome. I love it.