Season 1: Ep.13 - Graceful Rulebreaking with Maria Kathlyn Tan

Oct 20

(00:28)

[Kirsten] Hi Everyone. Welcome back to Graceful Rulebreakers. I'm your host, Kirsten Lee Hill. And I am beyond honored to introduce you to today's guest. Maria Kathleen Tan is known as the business coach for misfits. She empowers people who think differently all around the globe to create success on their own terms. Before coaching online, Maria was a cross-cultural business and communications consultant who worked with executives from all over the world, and coached over a thousand professionals. Within just two years of coaching Maria has been featured in Forbes, HuffPost, Elephant Journal, Pick the Brain and Addicted to Success. And she was the only Asian woman featured in the Money Code and How to Crack it; a book that debuted at number 14 on Amazon US. Maria's 1000 plus clients range from side hustlers to new entrepreneurs, to American Ivy league graduates to diplomats. And I'm one of them. I have been blessed to work with Maria for the past three or so years. So welcome, Maria.

[Maria] Thank you so much for having me. I'm very honored and excited to be here, and I'm so excited to be talking about the one thing that's really common between the two of us; which is Graceful Rulebreaking. So, I'm very happy to be here.

[Kirsten] Ah, thank you. It is such a pleasure to have you as my very first guest, and to get things started I would love for you to share a bit with listeners about your experience as a Graceful Rulebreaker, because as you said, this is something that we have in common and just kind of more about your story of when you started to realize that you think differently about things, and how that's impacted your life.

(02:10)

[Maria] So, I think, like, you know, I think for people we always know we're different one way or another, right? It's always one way or another, we're different. It's just that we're so conformed or we're so programmed to please someone else; please our parents, please our friends, please whoever… and you just need to wait, which matters more, being different or trying to please other people. So, to some extent I've always known it from a young age. And for me, my experience with rule breaking… I don't consider myself as a rebel. I consider myself different. I'm just different, I'm a misfit. And you don't even know that you're breaking any rules. It's just that you're different. And when others are threatened with that difference, one way or another, you now realize there are things that you should not have done. And that has followed my life since very, very young, because my experience with bullying was not actually for my classmates. It's from people who are older than me; whether they are students that are a few years ahead of me in school, or from teachers who just could not… not really ourselves, but who just could not tolerate someone so bold.

(03:50)

So they react, so vocal. And I'm Asian. In Asia, everything is about the collective. Things have changed over the past decades, but it's still a predominantly collective culture. So, there is that underlying rule, order, underlying expectation for you to be obedient, for you to be respectful, for you to be always listening to people, to your elders, for you not to be so aggressive with your opinions. And for people like you and I, or rule breakers who are misfits, it's not necessarily that we do not want to obey. It's just that we have a different perspective. I don't think anybody set out in the world to say, 'Hey, I want to break rules.' It's more… I have things that should not be this way. Or it's just that we cannot just follow the status-quo, or we just ask questions and we're vocal about those questions, right? It's like, so, why have we been doing this again for the past decades? It's, it's that context of owning our difference.

(05:26)

That really motivates me to do what I'm doing today. Because even in business, I come from a long line of business people; I also think differently. My values are different. The way I see business, the way I conduct business, the way I grow my business is very different, because before I do anything, I think about it very carefully. And I make sure that what I'm doing is what I want. A lot of, I think in entrepreneurship, in today's new normal, where everybody is their own boss and ‘do their own thing.’ Everybody has bought into the illusion that entrepreneurship is just drinking champagne. It's not, it is for me, business is about creating sustainability for yourself and the people that you affect. Entrepreneurship is an ecosystem on its own. So, a lot of people go into entrepreneurship sacrificing their values and integrity because again, they want to be their own boss, do their own thing, and a lot of values are compromised. But for me, what's the point of going into business if you're just going to be shackled to another kind of illusion? What's the point of you leaving corporate, or not going down the corporate route. If you are going to do things, not on your own terms, if you're going to do things just so, just because someone's told you it's the easiest way, or just because someone told you, it's the only way. Then for me, there's no point in leaving corporate. Corporate is so easy. You go there, you show up, you have a salary, you have benefits. Entrepreneurship is not easy.

(07:33)

Entrepreneurship has a lot of factors and variables that we have to consider. It's easy because we choose to make it easy. But on its own, it's not, it's hard to be the boss and it's hard to be responsible for the entire ecosystem that you're creating. It's hard to be responsible when you're given a choice between; do I sacrifice ethics for efficiency? It's hard to be responsible when you have a cheaper option somewhere. Again, do you sacrifice, do you choose your value? Or do you choose what's normally voiced by the public? So for me, that's been my journey. It's always about me just thinking different and being different, and me not accepting that things can only be done in one way.

(08:35)

[Kirsten] Yeah. I mean, that's definitely one of the first things that drew me to working with you, was I, it was in one of the Facebook groups I was on, and for entrepreneurs, and I saw you do a Facebook live on multi-passionates and how you could have a business, and like, pursue lots of different passions, and it really stood out to me because I'd worked with a number of business coaches, and just like consumed, like, so much info and like how to build a good business. And the message was always, like, niche down and pick the one thing you're good at, the one offer. And it was just, like, so restrictive. And when I came across your video, it was this totally different, fresh perspective saying like, 'Hey, you don't have to just pick one thing. Like, you can embrace all of your passions.' And I remember just feeling, like, finally, someone who's, like, not like shackling me with all these rules. This is so nice. I think that that message was something that was, like, really missing from the space. And I'd love to hear more about that from your perspective and just like doing business differently, because I totally agree that I think the values piece can get lost a lot, and that there's a lot of, like, rules and advice to people that aren't necessarily the best for everyone.

(10:02)

[Maria] I think there's a lot in today's world. When we first met, that was not that long ago, but in the last two years, the internet has been saturated with one expert after the other, right? And a lot of the people that I see, a lot of the business gurus, a lot of the business mentors, they have maybe done business for, I don't know, a few years. And they have done business one way. So, I think the way they do business, it's just for you to copy one way or another their business model, because that's the only way they know how to succeed. So for me, without disrespecting other gurus out there, business coaches, business mentors, it's not that they are not capable of doing business a different way. I believe it's just because they haven't tried it, or maybe the number of ways they did things are just limited.

(11:15)

I started my entrepreneurial journey when I was six, just selling, you know, stationary, those times when we know how to write better, uh, organizers… Um, now it's called a journal, right? But back then it was an organizer. So, and many, many other stationary supplies. So I started my journey with that. And then later on, it evolved to so many different things. I've been exposed to trading; Trading as an import/export, not stocks. I've also been exposed to retail, the retail industry, the concessionary industry. I've also been exposed… I also interned for my government in the commercial office. So, my experience in business is extremely varied. A lot of the big businesses are not about, okay, here's my product… Um, this is my terms. A lot of it is negotiations. And I think a lot of business, a lot of new entrepreneurs, or entrepreneurs who've done business one way because of this belief that, you know, we have to live by our terms. They see negotiation as an insult. Whereas for me, I see negotiations as part of the trade. Business is about negotiations, right? It's like, because everything is on my terms and everything is also on the other person's terms. We have to communicate and find a safe, healthy, middle-ground that works for both of us, because a lot of the time in negotiations, it's not even the price that matters. It's maybe value, it's about how something is represented. It's about, um… the terms of the, the terms of the engagement, et cetera, et cetera. So for me, the reason why a lot of people think you have to only niche down, that for me, is what… maybe about five or six to seven years ago, what a lot of the gurus were talking about, and that worked for a time. So that's what people were advocating.

(13:41)

Maybe now it's different because now there are more voices online, which I think is really, really healthy. But back then, it was just one. One voice. It's just one way. Now I feel, especially with the new normal, I see more and more different opinions online, and back then, it's just; here are the three steps that you can create success. Here's the highway, here's the way. And I think that's really sad because when, again, what's the point of creating business if you're doing business only in one way that may give you money, but not actually liberate your soul. It's the same as staying in corporate without the risk, without any, without the risk, without the risk of maybe I don't have any sales this month, right?

(14:40)

[Kirsten] When you think about working across so many, because you still work a lot across different cultures, how do you… and you're like negotiating and pitching to different people and working with different people… What types of questions are you asking them? Or how do you get to know them to see, like, how they fit or like how the values aligned? Because I think that's something really unique about you too, is that you work with such a diversity of people all over the place.

(15:09)

[Maria] So usually, I just listen. People will tell you if they're not okay with something, but the mere fact that they are still talking to you, it means they are interested. If they are not interested, there is no more discussion. It would just be very simple; no, this does not work for us, right? But even then, like, if they hop on a call, if it's not an email, if they gave you the courtesy of calling you or saying, 'Hey, I got your email or I got your proposal, but I feel like this doesn't work for us.' If they gave you that courtesy, it's still an engagement, it's not a done email. You know, I think we can be very sensitive to reading an email, to see this is a clear cut no, or it's a no but. So when you hear that 'but' don't focus too much on… on think of, okay… think of selling a cake. Whatever happens, the person came to you because they want to buy the cake, right? But sometimes, again, when people come to me to buy a cake, I'm the expert; that's why I'm selling the cake. But the way I think of creating the cake is very different from my buyer. That's why I'm the seller, right? I'm not the one consuming. I'm the one either on the store, either I'm the one creating, or maybe I'm a cake brand, but I know what I'm doing. Or I know, like there's a different perspective on the cake. But the mere fact this person came to me, it means this person likes my idea about the cake, otherwise she would not come to me. So, when you listen for whatever they're talking, and I have an idea, and after listening to this person, I got so excited, I'm just saying… oh, you know what? We can do this cake the white way. When it's wide, it's beautiful, we can have a dog here, we can have blah, blah… Perhaps the other person is overwhelmed with information.

(17:26)

Many people are not extremely specific with what they want, or they're not very articulate with what they want. They know the essence of what they're looking for, but maybe they haven't found the right words to convey it. Or maybe they haven't found the right words to express what works and what doesn't. So, I get so excited about the cake that I'm offering, and this person comes to me and says, 'Oh, but…' you can hear it, there's hesitation. But until this person hasn't said no, or it's still communicating with you, it means he or she is interested, but maybe he or she just has difficulty expressing… What about this particular offer is she not happy with? So when I'm listening, I usually listen for what exactly is the case. And the person will talk about it. You don't even need to say anything. They will talk about it. They would go around it, they would, they might not exactly pinpoint the issue but they would go around it, but they would talk about it over and over again. The best question that you can ask is, so if I do things in a different way, would that work?

(18:52)

And then you go into the fine tuning of the pieces. So we find a way that can really fit. It's like marriage, right? You cannot accept it… it's you know, it's like marriage where nothing is perfect. It's not about compromising. It's about focusing on the big picture and focusing on the values that you both share, because I believe you attract who you are. So many times when people, even in marriage or relationships, when people ask me, what if your husband is not as successful? What if blah, blah, blah… I often say, I will not attract why not? So one way or another, we share the same values. Maybe we have a different form. So for me, it's quality of life. Maybe for someone else it's quality of life, but in a different way. So for me, quality of life in terms of food, uh, the drinks that I'm drinking, my water, my bedsheets, maybe for him or my husband, it would be quality of time, maybe quality of the day, quality of… uh, a holiday, for example. So, both of us share the idea of quality. It's the same with businesses, whatever that shared quality is, that shared belief is… is there. But I think people get lost in the nuances.

(20:28)

[Kirsten] Yeah. I really like what you said about the listening for the but. And I'm curious what your tips are for people? I think a lot of the inclination is to get really defensive, right? Like right off the bat. I mean, I think I'm guilty of this too. I over-read into tons of emails, but I'm curious, what are your tips for people to like, in order to be able to stay open and asking questions rather than getting immediately defensive that, like, their proposal or idea wasn't perfect. Like, how have you… I feel like you're so, like, calm and like confident, and measured about it. So how can we be more like that?

(21:09)

[Maria] So, I think the first thing that people need to think on is, and this is the same, not just in business, in life if you are different, you have to understand that you get, you will trigger people. Either they usually, they are the ones that are defensive about their values because they have done some things so long the same way, right? And here comes, I don't know, a young… many times in my life, here comes this young girl, who's Asian, who's from a developing country, who's young, who is successful… it triggered, it doesn't add up to the people's minds. So, even in business, whatever it is that you're offering, it might be a fresh perspective. People are afraid of change. So when I hear the 'but' I don't take it as; but you are broken or but you're bad, or but you don't have quality. I think of it as, but please help me say yes.

[Kirsten] Hmmm, I love that.

[Maria] I never see the but as something about me being bad. It's about them needing… it's not more convincing, it's more support or openness, or guidance, or empowerment to say yes to you. Because again, people forget the big picture and get lost in the nuances. Oh but, you know, we've never done that, we've never signed with anybody like you, we don't pay that way, we don't… there's a lot of things, right? We never do business that way. We, whatever.

(22:59)

[Kirsten] Yeah. I love that. I also, so relatedly, you talked about this idea of essence and form, and I think that this is something that will really resonate with a lot of people, especially because I think a lot of people who are Graceful Rulebreakers are misfits. It is because they have these like clear values, but having clear values doesn't always translate into, like, a clear plan of action. So, I'm curious, can you talk a little bit more about the idea of essence and form, and particularly, like, your essence and form, and how you've evolved with your business?

[Maria] Yes, so before I talk about it, let me go back to the cake example.

[Kirsten] Yeah.

[Maria] Okay, so the essence of the question there was the cake, the essence of the need, the business need is about the cake, right? So two people, one the Baker, one the client, the customer comes, they just want a cake. So, the Baker is selling the cake. The buyer wants to buy a cake. Now, this buyer comes to this Baker because whatever, however he is presenting the cake, has been something that's new. It triggered the buyer to consider what this Baker is selling, or else he wouldn't have come to that Baker from the beginning. If it's just about the price, that was the question from the beginning. And if it's a budget that would have… if it's the budget issue, the person, the buyer would have gotten out of the door immediately. Mostly people talk about the price because they don't know what else to talk about. So don't I… until they're still talking to you, it's not the price. It's however you're presenting it. So the essence is the cake, right? The buyer wants the cake. The baker is selling the cake. The form now becomes what you put on the cake. The packaging. Is it maybe the person instead of a white theme, the buyer wants a more floral theme, but the buyer was not empowered enough to say that from the beginning. Or maybe the idea of a white theme is good, but maybe he doesn't want the elements that you put in, like the dog or the roses. Maybe he wants the lilies instead. Again, he doesn't want… the buyer is just not empowered to say that.

(25:37)

In my case, I started this online business coaching journey because I saw how making money is not the answer to anything. It's not just making money, making money and living on your own terms. Because from young, from very young, you're always told, okay, you should study hard, you should do this so that you can make a lot of money and then you can buy things, you have financial freedom. I reached that level in business, in consulting where I have a disposable income, I can easily afford a Cartier every month if I wanted to… um, but it didn't fill that void. So, I was very depressed in my mid-twenties and I went into spirituality. I went into; what's missing. Why am I feeling like this, right? Why am I feeling as though something's missing in my life? And I realized it's not about money. It's not about, again, the form. It's the essence of how I was living my life, which was back then, the focus was making money versus being sustainable, doing what I love. There's that difference. There's a very big difference because if you focus on making money, you say yes to everything. I said yes to everything. Of course there's a price boundary, right? But I said yes to every opportunity that came to me. And I was so afraid that there was no more better opportunity that would come because I just, you know, I just wanted money. Like, that's the focus, right? As long as the price is right, then of course I'll do that, right? And as long as it doesn't, it's not illegal, it doesn't demean me, it doesn't go against my values.

(27:31)

So when I started, um, in the online space, I didn't even talk about business coaching, because the business coaching that I was seeing online was what you were saying; one way, It's very, very champagne, Cartier. Not even Cartier, it's Chanel, champagne Chanel, pink, you know, pastel colors. That's coaching, right? And for me, I was, as I listened to people, as I connected to so many people, I was hearing their frustrations. And I just felt like, you know, you're going from one problem to another because being your own boss, having that much money, having a 10K month is not going to give you the freedom that you're looking for, right? Because again, if that's the case, then being in corporate would have already filled your soul. But again, right? In there, so many of that conversation… So I was so hesitant talking about myself with the word business. So when we met, I wasn't, I didn't even… um, branded myself as a business coach. It was transformation catalyst, right? And then later on, I realize I was using my frustration to dictate the market. I was just frustrated because a lot of people who are business coaches are not really business coaches. For me, my definition of business, okay… maybe in their mind they are doing business, for me, you're doing sales, sales after sales, after sales; that's not, that's not independent of your time, of your energy. It's something that, you know, that's not really on your own term. But it's so good to call it on your own term, when you're branding the way you're doing business, the things that you're doing are the things that you don't really want to do, but you have to do. So I started now, it was just last year that I started now saying, okay, you know, let me… I know business in the back of my hand. A lot of times, even with you, right?

(29:51)

Kirsten, when we first started, you were so hesitant with research. Remember, like, you wanted, like, you know, maybe I should be a yoga teacher or so on and so forth. And all of us, we know what makes us, what is easy for us, like the back of our hand and all of the forms, meaning all our passions is what highlights that. It's the same as the cake. For me… I've always done business my whole life. I've always played by my rules, my own life. I've always defied odds my whole life. Was it easy all the time? No. But it did not become difficult, because I chose my life to be easy. I chose not to take things seriously. I chose not to take things personally. I chose to look at comments, like, but, but you're Filipina, how can you be charging this much? Oh, but you're Filipina, so who's your husband, or, but you're just in your twenties so you should be coming from a very rich family. I took those comments as ignorance only. It's not a personal attack. It's just, this person is so limited in her experience and exposure that he or she did not see anybody but poor people from the Philippines, maybe.

[Kirsten] But this, I mean, this just really highlights something that I really admire about you, is that you don't take that stuff personally, and like, you are so willing to learn. Because I think, it's just about, in my life that's something I'm always learning is like, not to be devastated by people's comments, be so upset. And I really admire that you're just able to, like, contextualize it, and have such a good perspective on people's, you know, opinions and things that they say.

(31:52)

[Maria] I think it's because I know who I am very well. So, I don't take on people's narratives. So, I don't get offended, right? Because you only get offended when you're not clear about who you are. So for me, if you, if someone tells me you don't have class, you're not good enough, we think you're not a good fit, et cetera, et cetera. I just think, well, maybe I'm not who you're looking for, or well, okay, then maybe it's not the right time or whatever. But I wouldn't take that as an insult on me; it's that person trying to make sense of something, because maybe that person who said you don't have class, was just wondering, how the hell did she come here? This is a prestigious club, right? Who is she? She's not married to anybody. She's not a diplomat. So, and she's here already in front talking into mind and she's loud… blah, blah, blah. So who is she? And maybe again, they're just not articulated enough to deliver that message or that question with finesse.

(33:07)

[Kirsten] Was that always your reaction? Like, do you feel like, I don't know, was there ever a time in your life where people would say things like that, and you would have a pause and be like, huh? Like, maybe I really am, like, not that good.

[Maria] I wouldn't doubt myself, but I would react with fire in the past. That's why I said I'm the bumbling… and because it's more of, like, in the past I would get defensive, but I would not doubt myself. It's more of the… I would get defensive. Like, what the hell? Why did she think like that? Blah, blah, blah… is it because I'm Filipina? Is it because, you know, like everything now you start, you start questioning… your everything right? On the package. But the inside? No. Because for me, I just think I've always gotten good grades. I've been excellent in many things. So, for me, I don't think about someone saying you're not good enough as a right answer, because for me, good enough, whatever it is in work, everything is learnt. That's why I always say, do not focus on your skill, because when you think of skill, you will always compete with someone else, right? Like in skills as a researcher, you have a PhD. So someone who has two PhD or a JD would be better than you, right? If you're thinking that way. But I don't think that way. So, I wouldn't consider, um, whatever the other person is saying as bad, because I just think skill is something I just learned. So if you're telling me I'm not good enough, you're saying either the skill or my experience is not enough for your company, or my perspective is not what you're looking for. That's all. Because skill for me is learned. I can learn a new skill today if I want to. So for me, I wouldn't take that as; I'm not good enough, but I would react with fire.

(35:08)

I'm a passionate woman, so of course, in the past, I go headstrong and in my family, like, we are very loud. So just imagine when I was young, like young, young…10, 9, I would fight with my aunt. Very big fight. Can you imagine the 10 year old shouting at her aunt? That's me. That's me. That's what I said. I'm the bumbling Rulebreaker more than the Graceful Rulebreaker,

[Kirsten] I really want to give the listeners something practical. So, I know we talk a lot just about, like, translating our values and like experiences into action. This is like something you and I feel like bond over a lot. And so I'm curious, if you had like one simple piece of advice for other people who identify as Graceful Rulebreakers for their life, what would it be?

[Maria] Understand your value really, really well. Own it, of course. And then always keep that in mind whenever you make any decision, that's it. And then, once you make that decision, do not let go. Do not waiver in it. Do not think you will not get another opportunity. Do not think that… do not buy into other people's narratives. You just own it, and you let go. You don't think about anything else. When I close the door, when I exit any relationship, I don't think… oh, but, I would have lost that opportunity, maybe I would not know because that does not align with my value. And my value is very important for me. So regardless, even if I die, even if I have a choice today, die or not die, I'd rather die than live and do that thing.

[Kirsten] I love that. That definitely resonates with me. I have a hard time with the not wavering as you know, I have to ‘not waiver after’ that's what I'm working on.

(37:12)

[Maria] But many do that. Many have that issue, that they don't waiver. So, what happens is the door is not really close because you're looking back, right? You're looking back all the time, but for me, I just focus ahead.

[Kirsten] Can you share with everyone how they can connect with you and what you're working on now and your business, if there's any opportunities for people to work with you or join in any of your programs. You have an awesome Instagram account. How can, how can people keep up with Maria?

[Maria] I am… Instagram is my second home. I really love the platform just because I think it's all in one, like, be in the story. So, I am on Instagram @Maria_K_Tan…um, I'm also found in most social media, but the one thing that I love, and I'd love to invite everybody, is to take the test; how much of a CEO are you? Just because I think people always wonder if they have what it takes. So taking that will give you an idea of where you are and what other qualities that you need to develop to make your business thrive, or to start opening your own business.

(38:30)

[Kirsten] So, I've taken the quiz. I love that quiz. Yeah, highly recommend. Awesome. Well, thank you, Maria, so much for being here with me today. I value your insights so much that I'm just really grateful to be on this journey with you.

[Maria] Me too. It's been such a magical journey to see how much you've evolved.