Season 1: Ep.25 - Graceful Rulebreaking with Irene Greaves

(00:28)

Kirsten: Hi everyone. Welcome back to Graceful Rulebreakers. I'm your host, Kirsten Lee Hill, and I am so excited to introduce you to today's guests, Irene Greaves. Irene is the founder and director of Lovescaping, which is an absolutely incredible organization that works with schools and communities to teach how to cultivate and practice love. Her first book, Lovescaping, Building the Humanity of Tomorrow by Practicing Love and Action was published in 2018. It's incredible, I highly recommend giving it a read, and Irene and I first met a little over a year ago, I think it was, and I was just instantly just amazed and floored by her like loving, amazing presence, and just so excited about the work that you are sharing with the world. So Irene, thank you so much for joining me today. It is such a blessing to have you here.

(01:23)

Irene: Thank you, Kirsten. What a love-filled introduction, and I feel exactly the same way about you. So it's an honor to be here with you.

(01:32)

Kirsten: Thank you. I think, you know, the world always needs more love and I think especially as of lately with just so much trauma and isolation going on, and I'm just really excited to have you here to share your experience and your story, and your expertise with all of our listeners. And I'd love to just dive right in and talk about something that we both have a shared passion for, which is education. And if you could share with us about, like, what is the Lovescaping work that you're doing in schools? What does it look like and how is it different than what we might've experienced growing up or what we traditionally see?

(02:13)

Irene: So if you think about it, right? What is the purpose of schooling? Like, that's one of the first questions I like to ask, you know, uh, educators and students, even to think about it, like why do we go to school? And that's a philosophical question and there's many different answers for it, but I believe that as a human being, there's nothing more important than learning to love, learning to love ourselves and learning to love others. And as you said, I think we can all agree that love is the answer and that we need more love in the world, but I see a gap or a disconnect between saying, this is what we need, this is what we want, and… but how do we, where do we learn it? And first of all, what is it and where do we learn it? Because we can all have an idea of love, Kirsten. But again, I think your idea of love is very much impacted by your environment, right? By where you grow up… Um, if you grew up in a home where you were shown or taught love, or what happens if you grow up in a home where you are abused for instance, but you are told that you are loved, perhaps you grow up, associating love with abuse. And so I think we have to start with a very fundamental definition of what is love.

(03:36)

And then I thought to myself, can you imagine what our world would look like if every child that entered school could have an opportunity to learn to love in school. Because not all of us have the privilege or the luxury or the opportunity to learn to love in our home environments, but every child has to go to school. What a great opportunity to envision and imagine schools as places where we systematically learn to practice love, love as an action. And so that is really the premise of Lovescaping. I sort of looked at all of my life experiences and I saw that all my life's work up until this point was a preparation for me to do this work of my life, which is learning and teaching to love. And, uh, what I did is I broke it down into very specific, uh, pillars, I call them; the 15 pillars of Lovescaping, which is love and action, and I believe that it's only through the cultivation of these pillars that we can embody love, that we can be loved, and they include universal values, such as empathy and compassion, and solidarity, and humility. But I believe, like I said at the beginning, that there's a disconnect we can know or hear of these terms, but how and where are we actually taught to practice them? To really embody what it looks like to be humble, to be hopeful, to be grateful, to be empathetic. So, the work that I've been doing in schools is really to change a mindset, first of all, and to create spaces the same way we have classes for math and reading, and science that we have a space for love, where we come together and we really get to explore what it means to be human, where we get to heal, where we get to express our feelings and emotions. And when we get where we get to, really learn to embody each one of Lovescaping pillars.

(05:41)

Kirsten: You wouldn't think that that would be so radical, but I know I think about like my experience in school growing up, and it was very focused on, like, achievement and, you know, like doing well and excelling and like being the best, and I feel like that was a lot of the messaging that I received. And so the idea that there would be a space for love really is radical, right? It's like, what? Like, why would you do that in school? It's this place where you're learning like math and science, and reading, and to, like, be the best and do well in the world. And so I'm curious how, how has this idea been received by like schools and families and like, do they feel it's radical? Are they excited about it? Maybe both.

(06:28)

Irene: Exactly. And you know, interestingly, right? You look at the world right now. There are 'How to classes' for everything, right? How to make money, how to be successful, how to gain power, how to date, you know, how to, how to love like the most fundamental, and it is so simple, you know? But again, simple and easy are two very different things. And so what I found I've been doing Lovescaping now for almost three years, um… you know, as a program in the schools, and right now I'm leading the first ever school-wide implementation of Lovescaping at one of my middle schools, which is really the dream, it's every child in every class gets to do Lovescaping, gets to access Lovescaping spaces every day, and their response has been overwhelmingly positive. I mean, I think it's a mixture of everything, you know, and at the beginning sometimes students are like, what is this? And I love that students are so frank and honest, because even in their feedback, you see it, they share their experience, you know? They say at the beginning, you know, I wasn't sure about this class, I thought like, what is this love stuff? Like, what is this, what is this about? You know, I didn't want to be here. So I'm even said, I thought this was stupid, they were very frank. And then when we get to the end, they said, you know, this has transformed my life. This has given me an opportunity to learn something that I never had the chance to learn from a parent, and this has helped me cope with very strong feelings, with very hard feelings of anxiety and depression, or this has made me become a better person. This has taught me, I never thought of love as an action before, I had never thought about, you know, how do I practice love? And it has improved my relationships in my home, you know, in school.

(08:19)

I mean, and to now see, especially the skeptics, you know, because there are a lot of people who immediately will, will say, of course this makes sense. And I have, you know, amazing Principals and teachers who are on board from day one, but what really moves me the most is the skeptics. The ones who are at the beginning are like, what is this love stuff? Like, you know, this is not why we come to school or… and then, but then, they see that it really transforms people because love is a basic human need, Kirsten. And we know that if a child doesn't feel safe, if a child has not healed, you know, their trauma… and like you said at the beginning, there's so much like unhealed trauma in our society in general, right? Like this is almost a prerequisite to learning anything, for you to feel safe, for you to feel seen, valued, heard, and embraced. And so the results are like, I always like to say it's like a butterfly, you know, going out of a cocoon because you see the transformation, even in the body, even in the physical appearance of kids who students who may be in their body language are very, you can tell they're locked inside, you know, and suddenly they start opening up, opening up and then they spread their wings. And it is a transformation that, I mean, is remarkable. And so I have, um, incredibly powerful testimonials from the students and from parents too. Sometimes, you know, now that we're doing this virtual teaching parents get to sometimes often hear what their students are learning about. And so it's very interesting because they're like… wow, that is so, you know, that's great that you're learning that at school too. Like most, all the parents we have engaged with, um, have been very receptive to this.

(10:11)

Kirsten: I love that. I love that. And I think it is, it's important because I feel like families and parents, like, they do the best they can, but they're also carrying everything that like they were raised with, right? So, I think sometimes it's just not having, like, the skills or like access to show your children these things.

(10:30)

Irene: Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, again, this is not only something that we can only do in schools. I started there because my passion of course is, like, in the education space, I am an educator, but this is…this can really, these spaces are needed everywhere. Think about, you know, companies and nonprofit organizations and hospitals, and I mean, you name it, libraries and community centers just like Lovescaping spaces where we can come and truly just build the skills that allow us to practice love.

(11:02)

Kirsten: Can you talk a little bit about what, what types of like activities do you do? Like love as an action? Cause I think people don't often think about it as, like, an action, right? So can you talk a little bit about what, what does love look like as an action? And when you're thinking about, you know, teaching the pillars, what are the types of things that really, like, develop this in people?

(11:26)

Irene: Absolutely. And I think, you know, that's one of the challenges, right? Because you think a lot of these, even the pillars, they seem kind of abstract, like, how do you actually teach something that's a concept or a value… um, and I think here's where the creativity comes in. So I'll give you a few examples, when we practice empathy or learn about empathy, right? It's so important that we actually get to practice it in the classroom, like, what does this look like in action, right? So we might for instance read about…um, a person's behavior, you know, another student, this is how they're behaving, and then everybody gets to share, what do they think about that behavior? Maybe something's happening at home? Oh, maybe they're a bad person. You know, they all get to share what they think. Maybe they label the person. And then, we bring the shoes, like, actual shoes physically when we're in person off that person, and here are their shoes and now let's practice getting in their shoes. And so the students literally go and step inside these character's shoes and get to hear the story of the person from their experience, right? My name is Maria and this is my story, and this is what's happening. And they get to learn that there's always, every behavior is a form of communication, and so they really get to understand that how did stepping into the person's shoes help you understand the behavior? How do you now see differently what you first may be judged, right? And you labeled it, maybe you said… Oh, they're being mean, they're bad or they're not nice. Now that you got into their shoes, you see it in a very different light.

(13:11)

So, imagine every human being has a story, we are all icebergs. So we do activities like that when we, for instance, talk about what it means to be vulnerable, like, vulnerabilities, one of the pillars, right? Because that's how we really build trust and honesty, and just opening up our hearts, which is one of the hardest things to do. And so we create masks, so students get to create their own masks, when they write on the mask, like, what do you show to the world? What do you pretend, you go out into the world and oftentimes we all do it because we, you know, we have to carry on with life, and sometimes we can feel very sad, but we have to go to school, we have to go to work. So maybe your mask says, you know, happy but when you take it off, what is your vulnerable self? Like, what is the real vulnerable feeling? And they get to share that and they get to share, why do we wear masks, right? And what does my mask say? And I think it's just so important to just bring it in and, you know, to do, uh… you know, to bring the arts as well, but to be creative and think outside the box when we do these, these activities because, you know, again, like a lot of these concepts are sort of, you know, they seem quite abstract.

(14:26)

Humility is one of my… actually the pillar that we always start with, and that is one of the pillars of love and we talk about humility as this idea of recognizing that every human being has a frame of reference from which we see the world. And so we get these frames that we kind of, you know, like a picture frame that every student gets and they imagine this is how you see the world, imagine all the things that make you who you are. Who are you? What are your values? What do you believe in? What are the things that move you, that make you, you? Um, and inform your identity, right? Your gender, your religion, your race, all the things that make you who you are. And then really, and then they get to… everybody gets to share what they write on their frame of reference, parts of their identity, and they get to see that being humble means, acknowledging that we all have a frame of reference. And my frame of reference is as valid as yours, it's just different. And so really humility is the opening to empathy because if I'm not humble, and I think that my frame of reference is the only one or the correct one, I am unwilling to even step out and see what your frame of reference looks like, right? And so I really try to make it as, you know, as engaging as possible, because a lot of these again, are not very easy to explain or to really practice. But I think it's also through the modeling as adults, Kirsten, like we need to model these behaviors. So, in class, right? To name it, whenever this is caring, this is me being humble, this is me being compassionate, this is me being empathetic. To name it and call it when a student performs that pillar, you know, like thank you for being grateful. Thank you for your honesty, right? Like, to really reaffirm those behaviors, not only in the Lovescaping class, but throughout the school day.

(16:30)

Kirsten: What I really love about this is that I think you recognize that the concepts seem abstract, but that doesn't make you shy away from it. I think something I see so often as people are like empathy or whatever, it's like so hard to explain or to capture. So it's like, they just kind of, like, let it hang and don't work to define it. And that's what I really love about what you're doing is you don't do that. You're like, so like, what does it look like? Let's get really specific because I think it's so hard to like learn something, or like in my line of work to, like, measure something, if you can't explain what it is, right? And so these big things they're so important to the world, but we kind of just let them float around as these like buzzwords of how we should be without actually thinking like, well, what is it?

Irene: Exactly. I agree. I agree.

Kirsten: I think that creativity piece is so incredible, and I think that, I mean, it's just an amazing way to think about developing these skills, and I also think it makes it so much more fun or like light. I think something that I really… like, as an adult observing different education programs now, I always think like, I wish I had learned to be so much more open or like comfortable doing things as a kid, right? Like, the idea of making and wearing a mask, like, it kind of stresses me out now as like an adult and like, I don't know how I would do it, that activity, right? And I was like… wow, that'd be so great to like, learn, does a child to feel really comfortable with like my emotions or like role playing, and I think that those are just all amazing things.

(18:12)

Irene: Exactly. Absolutely. And also, I have a whole, before we dive into the pillar, we really build community and so I think everything matters, like every little detail of the class from how you set up the space matters. We sit in a circle, I am very intentional about every little piece of it, because again, a circle is a symbol of unity, right? Of non hierarchy. Everybody's voice matters, everybody. So again, I think it's, from that moment, we come into the space, we sit in a circle, everybody gets to share how they're feeling that day. So again, giving it the language and vocabulary to not just default, to default to that, "I'm fine. I'm fine. How are you? I'm fine." That's what we all do. And to really just because it's okay, all feelings are valid and sometimes you're feeling sad and sometimes you're feeling angry, and this is a space for you to process that and just be, be honest with us. And then, we also get to ask a question of the day and this kind of builds the community, every student gets to answer. And so then, we dive into the pillar, but we really, you know, I use a lot of play, a lot of team building activities, and just to create that sense of safety, it's very important, right? Because it takes time, it takes time to build trust and um… but you create it by showing up and by being intentional, and by being a good listener, right? And bringing up what a child, the student says the previous week or the previous day, you know, they mentioned something happening in their life, you follow up with them, right? Like what happened with your mom? You know, how did it go? How was your exam? And so it's really those little things that make the difference at the end of the day.

(20:02)

Kirsten: So what has that looked like in this new, like virtual world we're living in, how have you transitioned? Because I mean, again, so much is about the intentional community and the spaces you create. What does that look like moving to online and how, I guess, how have you dealt with that? Cause that must've been a big pivot to take on.

(20:24)

Irene: Absolutely. It was a pivot, but you know what, I've come to realize Kirsten, this is a very important lesson I've learned this past year is that the virtual experience at the beginning, I was trying to recreate what we had in the real world. And it was so frustrating because it's like, but it can never be like in the real world and it's just, it's never going to be. And then I realized, you know, that is… that frame was not helpful and it's not about recreating. I mean, we cannot replace the in-person experience. It's about creating a new experience that can be as positive, as engaging, as transformative in a virtual space. It's just creating a whole new experience and trying to make it as best as you can. But I think it was helpful to just change that and say, I'm not here to replace it because it cannot be replaced, but how do I create a meaningful experience virtually? And the answer is you can, you can. I mean, this is something I've been working with my schools now that we can create these positive experiences virtually, and you have to learn tools of engagement, but it's really the same concept, just different media, using different media. And so I've adapted my entire curriculum using a very good platform called Nearpod, which I highly recommend to anyone out there looking for engaging tools. Nearpod is my best friend, because it's really helped a lot to kind of, you know, make it as interactive as possible.

(22:05)

So I basically put my entire curriculum up on this platform and you can have student paced or live participation. It has poles, it has drawing features, it has, you know, quizzes, it has like games, it has… So it really makes it as interactive as possible, and then we do our virtual circles. You know, we build our circle and we have our students create their own avatars or Bitmoji's, and we have them all sitting around the circle and we have that visual of us all around the circle, and we do our virtual circles. We do everything we do in the real world, just virtually. Again, it's not the same but it's still a positive experience, and I have to say, especially in the midst of the pandemic with so much social alienation, these spaces are so crucial, and our students who are doing the school-wide program, we got the responses from 150 middle school students, we did a kind of mid-year check-in to see how their experience with the Lovescaping class was. And they rated it, you know, there was out of 10, 8.5 out of 10 total ratings, sort of like their whole experience with the Lovescaping class. These are boys and girls… um, we have amazing testimonials of how much they love just expressing their feelings, having a safe space, um, listening to their classmates, learning new concepts that they never heard of before. I mean, really incredible. This has helped me with my anxiety. This has helped me with my depression. This has helped me feel less alone. So really powerful testimonials, and so that tells me that we can create a positive experience virtually as well.

(23:52)

Kirsten: Yeah and I love that mindset shift too, because I think that so often when things change, people are like, okay, like, we need to recreate exactly what we had before, and I think to your point that can really like restrict us or hold us back, and feel frustrating instead of just being, like, okay, like opportunity to do something different, but still working to bring in like the essence of what you have in person. So I really love that. I love that.

Irene: I agree.

Kirsten: This whole idea of Lovescaping is so it's just, like, inspired and so deep, there's so many pillars and aspects, and I'm curious, is there an experience or experiences in your life that sparked this? Like how did this come to be? Like, what was going on with you that you were like, I'm going to build out this incredible thing.

(24:46)

Irene: Well, you know, I think actually once I saw the title of your podcast and I loved it because I'm like… Oh, I guess that's what I've been my whole life, a Graceful Rulebreaker, it was just so satisfying to put a term to it, and so I thank you for that, Kirsten, because I think that's a brilliant way to put it. And so I think, in a way, as I said, like Lovescaping is a result of all my roaming around, of all my living and loving across opposite corners of the world. I've had the great privilege and opportunity to live in many different parts of the world. I'm originally from Venezuela, but I left 15 years ago and in those 15 years i've lived in Africa, Asia, Europe, and Central America. Now, I'm here in North America and always working in the field of education and community development, and I've always just had this passion to sort of…um, make the world a better place and to understand the world, and to see myself not just as a citizen of Venezuela, but as a human being on planet earth, and so what does that mean? That means that there's so much more to learn about. And I wanted to kind of go out and see what frames of reference were out there, you know? And so I always had this curiosity, so I sort of always followed my heart and I had also the privilege of being able to follow my heart, and so I didn't, I never really followed the traditional, you know, successful, um… modes of living in terms of like, okay, going to college and finding a job right after, and following, you know, the ladder of success. I sort of always just followed my heart, and after I graduated college, I went and volunteered, and then I, you know, I wanted to live in all these different places because I wanted to learn different languages, and I wanted to understand the world and I wanted to meet my fellow human beings, and it's like, I just had this desire to, you know, to enrich myself through kind of like through the experiences of others and to add my own seed to that, and to make, you know, my community better than I found it, no matter where that was, because I think you create community wherever you go. Um… and so Lovescaping has really been a result of all those experiences.

(27:20)

When I look back at; what were we doing? What allowed me to become one, to create family and loving relationships in all these different places, you know, in urban areas, rural areas with people from very different walks of life, like what was it? And that's how I uncovered the 15 pillars of Lovescaping. I realized what we were essentially doing was practicing love and action. We were being humble. We were being solidary. We were being hopeful. We were being compassionate. So all of those pillars sort of reveal themselves as I looked closely at, you know, letters and I kind of did my own little research project with like coding the themes that appeared in my former students letters to me, and community members, and letters, and poems that I received throughout my life, just like, what were people saying about our spaces, about our relationships, about our classes? And so really, that's what propelled me. I was like, this is my philosophy of life. This is my purpose of… to be, to exist in this world to really just teach love and to even be able to say that it took me a long time, because there was so much, you know, fear and self-doubt of; who am I to talk about love and bring love into the world, right? I mean, it almost sounds like, it sounds so simple to say that, but it was so hard for me to even to own it, you know, and to say, this is what I'm here for and this is what I want to do. I want to teach love and I'm going to publish my book, and I'm going to start my pilot programs, and I did, and there's been no turning back, but the hardest part was getting that leap. You know, that was hard.

(29:08)

Kirsten: Yeah. Is there anything you can think of that helped you to take the leap? Because I know, I think this is common with people who identify as Graceful Rulebreakers, it feels overwhelming and stressful, and like a lot of doubt where it's like, can I really, like, do this, right? Or like, does I think something I think about all the time is, I'm like, does this even make sense as a thing to do? Like, I think there's just so much internal dialogue, and so I'm curious, is there anything that helped you be able to like take that leap? Because I think to your point, like once you leap there really isn't turning back. It's like, okay, like we're going now, but it can take a while to get to the point where you're like, okay, I'm doing it.

(29:53)

Irene: Exactly. I think in my journey, I think two things were interesting that now I can point back to and connect the dots. So I was, I moved to Houston four years ago and I was trying to figure out what was going to be my role here in this new community. And I started applying to jobs and interestingly, at every job interview I had, I would always end up talking about Lovescaping. I mean, it's almost comical now because to the point that I had one interview and actually they told me, they said like, why don't you do this Lovescaping stuff? Like, why are you interviewing for this job? And honestly, it's like, sometimes you have to have somebody outside because like you said, it's this interior dialogue inside you, all this self doubt, I've always suffered from imposter syndrome. So, it's like all these, you know, like, who am I like, how is this going to work? Like, I can't do this, and all it takes sometimes is just listening to those signals that you know, the universe, the world is sending you and also to surround yourself by people who will help push you. Because sometimes you need a little push. I think ultimately, obviously it's your decision. But I remember the moment, it was like an epiphany. I was with a friend at the end of 2017, and I remember sharing with her Lovescaping in my idea, and I was telling her, you know, I'm just waiting. You know, I'm just waiting to see when I'm going to do it, and I'm just, you know, I'm preparing, I might start, and she's like, why don't you start now? Why don't you start now and buy the URL for your website? And she gave me that little push and that night here in my house, I bought the URL, you know, for Lovescaping and there was no turning back. And it was something about, you know, there wasn't anything remarkable about that moment, but it was something, you know, it was just being with her, and she gave me that little push and she said, like, why not now? And again, all the other messages, subliminal or not so subliminal messages from people saying like, why don't you do this? And that was it. I bought the URL, I built the website. And the next year I said, this is I'm going to publish my book and I'm going to start my pilot programs. I'm going to start knocking on doors, and so that was it.

(32:22)

Kirsten: I love that. I do. I feel like the universe does, to me, it's like, it sends like little signals and then I feel like it just gets like much less subtle as time goes on, you know? Like I remember for me, like, I couldn't get a job to save my life. I applied for so many jobs and just like nothing, and I was like, really? And I think it's because if I had gotten a traditional job, like that would have so been the safer, easier choice, which like, is very attempt… like, it's appealing sometimes, it's like… Oh, that would be so easy. So I think the universe is just like, no, no job for you. Like, forget about those plans.

Irene: Exactly. Exactly. And in retrospect, right? It all makes sense, right? You connect the dots and now it makes sense. Like, that's why I didn't get any of these jobs, right? And so it's beautiful to look back on the journey.

Kirsten: Yeah. I love that. And something else you talked about really resonated with me is the aspect of imposter syndrome, because I think that is like another huge piece of like the struggle to create change in the world. Is that like, if you, if you want something to change, it's because you're like not believing what everyone else believes, right? And so I think it does put you in this position where you need to be an expert to like advocate for the changes you want to see, but don't always necessarily like, feel like you have, I don't know, like enough knowledge. Like I know for me, it's like, I always want to like, get one more certification or like take one more class or read like one more book and like, then I'll feel ready. And I think especially when you're tackling these big things, like love is huge, right? Like, how did you get to a point where you're like, no, I am an expert in this. Like, I know a ton about this. What, has anything shifted with you? Is it something that you still struggle with and just kind of, how do you cope with that?

(34:19)

Irene: Yeah, yeah. No, I think, I mean, it's something, it's interesting because I was trying to pinpoint where and why, when did the imposter syndrome start? And even though I've always kind of suffered from it with, you know, a lot of self-doubt and like, you know, always questioned like my intelligence or, you know, my skills or my abilities to do things or to perform… um, in educational settings or, you know, in the professional settings. And they were, you know, more often than not, they're unfounded, right? It's just like, it's in your head, but it doesn't even, me knowing it's in my head, doesn't make it, you know, doesn't make it go away. So, I think you have to be, at least what's helped me is to tackle it directly. And something I started doing was sort of creating a file. So, I actually have this little folder on my phone that I called it, uh… it's called self-confidence and it is to tackle imposter syndrome. And I kind of, you know, I put a lot of letters and poems, and messages that I'd gotten from people I love, that kind of reaffirm who I am, because it's hard to tell yourself, like, no, I can do this, I'm good enough and I know my stuff. Sometimes you need to hear it from somebody else, and… um, because it you know, again, like the fact that, you know it's not real, it doesn't make it go away.

(35:46)

So, sometimes really hearing it from others helps me remind myself of like… oh no, I got this. Like, I can do this. And so I really, that's been really helpful anytime I start feeling it, and you know, before I do a webinar or before I go into do a professional development, or I start feeling the imposter syndrome creeping up, like, who am I to do this? I'm not, you know… I read my files and I read this encouraging messages and letters, and it gives me a lot of peace. It just kind of centers me and like, it's like who I am and why I started this Lovescaping work, because I believe in my ability to love and to be loved, and I can now finally own it and say, I am good at love. And I know that sounds like, Kirsten, it sounds, it's so interesting because now it just sounds almost very foolish to say that, but it was a journey for me to own my truth and to say, this is what I'm wanting to do and I'm good at this. And I know my work because this has been the work of my life. Like it's not just a venture and an entrepreneurial venture, it's actually my philosophy of life. The work of my life is Lovescaping and so I have the authority, I have the experience… um, but again, it's like so much of it is owning it. You know, you have to own it. You have to get to that point where you really believe it in your inside yourself… Um, and to say it out loud because it's and… that, wasn't one of the biggest struggles for me and that's how I start my book. I'm like, I can now finally say it, you know, that this is my dream job is to love and to teach love, and now I'm owning it, and here I go,

(37:33)

Kirsten: I love it. Well, I think you're, to your point, there's a difference between, like, I think it, it is really hard to say things and to not feel silly saying it, right? It's like at the beginning, it's like, sure, I'll say this, but like, it just feels like fake or like off a little bit, and I think you're right, like, there's a point at which you finally are like… no, this feels good. This is what I do. I totally, totally get it. And I think that that's something that, to me, that I love about spending time with you and talking to you is that your authenticity just shows through so much, right? Like, it doesn't feel like, I think sometimes, especially when you work in the entrepreneurial space, like, I feel like I'm constantly being like sold and it drives me nuts. Like, I feel like people are just like trying to sell me on themselves or like their idea, and it just comes, it just doesn't feel good to me, right? And I think that there are other, like some people's like when you've really tapped into, like, this is my purpose, this is like my authentic self, I think that that really shows, and I think that that attracts like the right people to you, and that's, I love that about you, because I think that you are so authentic in your work, and you can just tell that it's something that means a lot to you, but also that just comes very naturally. None of the sense, like, doesn't take hard work, but it's like, you're not faking it. It's just like, this is, this is your philosophy and you really embody it, which I really love.

(39:03)

Irene: Thank you, Kirsten. You know, I agree. I think ultimately that's why all of us, you know, uh… Graceful Rulebreakers, entrepreneurs who, you know, it's usually because you believe you take the leap because you find that space within you, that, you know, where you just believe in yourself and you, and again, you can't fake authenticity, like it's just almost impossible to do it, and so that's why the hardest that is with yourself. At least for me, I can speak from my experience that that was the hardest that like overcoming my own self-doubt and fear, because then when I put myself out there, the work speaks for itself. It's almost like, you know, if you work hard. Of course, you know what you're good at. You learn every day.

(39:52)

Kirsten: For people who are listening and thinking like that they could use more love in their life, or that they want to just practice love, I think with like much more intentionality. Is there any advice that you have, I'd say, like, I think like for adults and also for like adults who like have children too, cause I think that it's, I mean, obviously everyone can benefit from it, but are there any like small steps that you can recommend people taking to live in a more loving way?

Irene: Absolutely. I mean, I think first is, you know, ask yourself, just really take the time to reflect on your own definition of love. What does love mean to you? Where did you learn to love? These are the two questions I always ask everybody at, you know, what is love and where did you learn to love? And so write it down, you know, if you have, if you're in a relationship or with your children even, just do it as a family activity, try to break it down. Because again, I think these are such… um, it just, it sounds so obvious. It's almost like we take it for granted. We think it's common sense, but it is not, and again, like try to, you know, break it down. Like, what does love mean to you and how do you practice love? And then mine is always an invitation, Kirsten, to you, to every human being, to really look at themselves, and then compare, look at Lovescaping. What I'm offering is a framework, a way to conceptualize love… um, formula for love, if you will… Um, and by no means, I'm saying that this is the right way or the only way it's just, I think, like I said at the beginning, we need to define it in order to teach it in a very intentional way. And so compare it, look at your definition of love and look at Lovescaping, Lovescaping's pillars, and try to see where, you know, which ones maybe you had never thought of, or maybe, you know, you can tell like… oh, I need to work more on this one, and you know, I love that because I have friends who actually, you know, read my book together or go to my website and they sort of keep a tab of like the 15 pillars and they say, okay, we need, I need to work more in this one, I need to work more on patience, I need to… and so it's really to approach it with, you know, with curiosity and openness, because the good news is that we can always change this idea that people don't change is a lie. I mean, we can change and I've witnessed it, and when people, if you can, you will change and there's always room for more love in the world.

(42:36)

So, I just encourage you to start with that curiosity and look at your own definition of love, compare it with Lovescaping, and then, again, practice it and do it more intentionally with your family, even, you know, at the dinner table, like how, you know, practice being vulnerable and just going around and talking about, you know, fear and talking about grief, and loss, and sadness, like to really allow for just the complexity of what it means to be human…um, and then you start there and then you start adopting them… um, more. And I invite, of course, everyone to, you know, visit my website where you can read up on all the pillars, and of course, uh, and of course reading my book, and my aim with the book is I wanted it to be accessible. It's a very simple book, and that was my aim, for it to be simple. Like, I think, you know, third grade and above can read the book and it is understandable. It's simple. And, but again, like I said, simple is not the same as easy. So we have to just take it upon ourselves to be intentional, because it's very easy to point fingers and blame and say, you know, especially in the context of relationships, not look at ourselves and say, how can I change? How can I embody these qualities, right? I have to start with myself. And so, you know, my last word of advice is that love does not become diminished when shared. And that is one of the most fundamental lessons I learned growing up that, you know, we have this idea of, you know, love is… it doesn't mean that because I love you, I'm going to love this other person less, like actually love multiplies, it grows. And so don't, you know, don't worry, um, that you know, that your love is going to, you only have a set amount of love to give actually love is boundless, and that's why it would make it's the most unique human experience.

(44:38)

Kirsten: What's next for Lovescaping? Are there other places that people can connect with you and support your work in the coming, in 2021? It's here, it's not coming anymore.

(44:54)

Irene: Oh, so my goal, you know, my dream is for Lovescaping to become a movement really, and for every school, you know, in the world, I mean, not just here in the US but across the world, to create and build the spaces in them. And so I just encourage everybody to… um, follow me as well on Instagram, I am @Lovescaping and…um, and I am also starting to work, plant the seeds for a new book that will be more kind of catered to educators, and just more about the experience, like teaching it in the classrooms, like more of like, um, kind of like a, how to guide, a more practical guide. So, that is something I look forward to. I don't know if this year or the next, but it's definitely something I want to do. And honestly at the end of the day, if this has helped in any way, to make you reflect or to make you wonder, like that is already a little seed that is planted in your heart. So that is success to me, that this is like an opening for us to, you know, just be more, more open to talk about love and to practice love.

Kirsten: Well, Irene, thank you so much for being here with me. I always love talking to you, and I'm just so grateful for you sharing your perspective and insights with everyone, and just thank you for the amazing work you're doing to bring more love into the world. I'm really excited about it.

Irene: Thank you, Kirsten.